How To Get Rid Of A Rival: Survey says...
Dear Duana,
Dave and I’ve been dating half a year. A couple months ago, he and ex-girlfriend Megan renewed their friendship. I’ve asked to go along on their outings (they still go to movies, concerts, out to eat, hang out at one another’s apartments)—but he said no because “it would hurt Megan to see us together.” He’s occasionally tried shifting plans with me to be with her. He doesn’t tell me when he’s meeting her, unless I happen to ask at the right moment.
I don’t want to be a jealous girlfriend, but I also don’t want to lose Dave. I’m fine with exes having truly neutral contact, and I’m loathe to impose ultimatums and end friendships, but this situation is starting to look strange. Even if she’s one of his best friends, it seems increasingly inappropriate that they meet privately as long as she has feelings for him and is single. What do LoveScience and your readers say about how much contact is appropriate between my boyfriend and his ex-girlfriend, who appears to still harbor feelings for him while he claims they are ‘very good friends’? And what is my best bet for minimizing the threat she poses to our relationship?
Tricia
Dear Tricia,
I’m just gonna lay it out there: I don’t like this article. Some abuser will use it to justify the unjustifiable, twisting my words to fit unintended circumstances. Plus, most of what’s said here is downright ugly.
Also, I don’t like your boyfriend—or at least his behavior towards you. Half a year in, his biochemistry should be so dopa-jacked, he thinks you’re the only woman in the world. Yet he’s not only noticing another woman, but protecting her feelings ahead of yours, justifying dates with her and excluding you, occasionally preferring time with her to time with you, and sneaking around. It all makes me wonder: If you get this guy, will you get anything worth having?
That said, you want this man, and you’ve asked me and other Wise Readers to tell you how to keep him (please see the Survey and full results beneath my signature). And so here’s what the science and we have said. *Sigh*
Minimize Contact
Although 7% of respondents pointed out how much contact Dave has with his ex is up to him, it’s up to *you* to decide how much contact you’ll tolerate between your boyfriend and his ex. Fully 55% of LoveScience respondents said the right amount is Zero. The rest (38%) favored contact under very limited circumstances, such as with you and/or others present, or with your knowledge. I’m with the 93% here; Megan and Dave are showing far too many signs of Friends with more than Friendship on their minds. To the extent this supports and empowers you to take action—good.
Minimize Megan
That said, Megan’s still around and still a threat. Fortunately, David Buss and other evolutionary psychologists have done studies of dating and married couples to discern the most effective strategies for dislodging a mate poacher (the technical term for Megan; see Angelina Jolie for details). Here are four of the winningest, if not the most winsome, tactics.
—Be Vigilant: This first line of defense for most folks is one you’re already using. Watch and act. In studies, people admit they’ve eavesdropped on phone calls, gotten friends to tail the interloper and/or partner, read their mail, dropped in at work or home unannounced, etc. They’re like that credit card that’s everywhere you want to be—or at least, the company monitoring use. PC it’s not, but it is often effective:
“My husband said he was going to meet one of his business associates for lunch, and my antennae went out as this was something totally out of the norm for him. At a recent party, I had witnessed one of his business associates definitely making a play for him…right in front of me! So, when he returned from the aforementioned luncheon, I asked him point-blank if he had met so-and-so for lunch; he very sheepishly replied that he had. I let him know in no uncertain terms that ‘that dog was not going to hunt’, and that put an end to it.” (Woman, age 65+)
“I was a newlywed, and my husband’s family hired this nubile, hot, single, openly flirtatious woman to work in the family business. Goody, she’d be working side by side with him every day. She made no bones about showing she thought the sun shone out his backside. She flirted with him in front of me, tried to be alone with him whenever possible, and touched him on the arm or draped an arm around him when she could. He had this deer in headlights look about him, as if he were confused but drawn toward the light. I wasn’t having it. I know someone’s bound to say ‘If they want to stray then they’re going to and nothing you can do will stop it,’ but I’m calling bull on that. This was not some casual interest of mine, this was MY HUSBAND. I didn’t give up on him, or me, or us, but I decided to get rid of her. I put in a bad word about her work and personal habits with his parents who owned the business. I told my husband that she was flirting and I wanted him to avoid being alone with her. He thought I was overreacting but he did as I asked. I dropped in at work and spent time with her. She didn’t last long. This was the only time I was jealous and it didn’t happen again and that was in 1998. Yes I got the outcome I wanted. (Woman, age 35+; see also ‘Be Catty’, below.)
A related, more socially acceptable signal is staying near your mate and showing your connection with body language—holding hands, draping an arm around Dave, and doing what this woman did:
“A good looking female was talking to my partner at a bar and started doing the playful things that I would do when we were courting, ex. Light hitting, hair flipping, touching his arm, etc. I walked over to him, held his hand and introduced myself. If she was a friend he knew previously, I didn’t want to make assumptions. She introduced herself and left shortly thereafter. I feel I made my point in a non-confrontational way.” (Woman, age 25+)
—Be Beautiful: It wouldn’t surprise me to find LoveScience readers who wake up mumbling ‘youth and beauty, youth and beauty’. Outshining the competition isn’t always possible, but apparently the attempt proves worthwhile for many. How are you looking these days? Men with younger, more beautiful partners work harder to maintain the relationship. They focus their attention on the lovely mate…hopefully to the exclusion of others.
—Be Catty: The flip-side of being beautiful is making Dave think Megan is undesirable, unintelligent, untrustworthy, un-sane, or a skank-fest, simply by starting a rumor. Buss found that women who’re striving to give a ho the heave have some wiley moves —dripping poisonous rumors into the ear of their mate to prevent his defection. Charming examples from my files or the Survey include these:
“She slept with [every guy in the freshman class].”
“She’s got [name that STD].”
“She’s got [name overly large or small portion of anatomy].”
“Let it slip that they poop in the shower or something equally disgusting…” (Woman, age 35+)
And the best/worst of all, from a woman age 35+: “+—….The old man’s ex-fiancée decided she wanted him back. Compounding the problem was the fact that she was now/then working for my ex-best friend’s company, and they two of them decided to collude on this issue. They started by spreading a rumour that got right back to my mother that I was hooking…And then it escalated from there. I called in a favour with an old friend and had her current boyfriend arrested on an ages old warrant. He had legally changed his name, and the warrant was for a couple of misdemeanor charges, so no one really bothered to put any effort into it. At least, not until they were given a specific address. Then I tipped off the other board members of her mother’s very Catholic charity committee that she was, in fact, a flaming lesbian…I don’t care about anyone’s sexuality. But the Catholic charity sure cared. [I continued making her life a living hell by calling various entities that could and did wreck her auto loans, business, job, etc.]. After all that, the ex found that she just had too much going on in her life to pursue my husband. Poor thing….”
The weird thing? Denigrating Rivals Often Works—both because men value status and because their perceptions are somewhat socially influenced. In Buss’ words, “The fact that others in one’s social world believe a woman to be unattractive can damage a man’s reputation by association.” And in studies, men actually see a woman as less attractive simply by being told she’s got flaws (physical and otherwise)…even if it’s the current partner making the judgment.
—Be Jealous?: Tricia, you said you don’t want to be a jealous girlfriend, but here’s what I want: for you not to *need* to be a jealous girlfriend. Jealousy is an adaptation—an evolved psychological mechanism that helps us detect a threat to our relationship and do something about it. As Buss points out, getting embarrassed at jealousy for existing is like berating a fire alarm for going off when smoke is filling the house. Although therapists and the lay public usually prefer to dismiss jealousy as mere insecurity, research shows that jealousy serves important functions—namely, motivating us to prevent or end an infidelity.
Of course, denial and undeserved trust are other options—sucky ones, usually, if you’ve got any power at all. As one man age 45+ put it, “More than one situation. Chose to trust my partner, period. That gave me about an 80% failure rate.”
Kudos. You’ve opted for Not Denial, aka Fighting The Fire instead of Blaming The Smoke Alarm. Now consider doing what half the women who are worried about their standing with a guy do: Give Dave a fire of his own to fight—shifting his attention away from having two willing and eager women, to having to deal with a threat to the one we hope he values most. (The article on how and why to create jealousy is here). As a woman age 25+ put it, “fair is fair…. Start hanging out with your ex….” If Dave doesn’t break out his hose? Take your cue and save your time: He was truckin’ anyway.
Are there more strategies for eliminating a rival? Yes—oh, yes. Some appear in the Survey results, below, and even more are detailed in Buss’ book. But just as jealousy is a symptom rather than a cause of your trouble, I think Megan isn’t the core of your problems. Dave is.
My wish—and that of many Survey respondents— is for you to rid yourself of both Megan and Dave. A disloyal, self-focused partner who discounts your happiness and emotions and puts someone else first, just when his love should be burning brightest? Is not anyone to trust. Those who cheat early tend to cheat often, and you’re having to work awfully hard to prevent or stop an infidelity at a soon stage.
But that’s your call. Whatever the outcome, I’m wishing you the best.
Cheers,
Duana
All material copyrighted by Duana C. Welch, Ph.D., and LoveScience Media, 2012.
Do you have a question for Duana? Email her at Duana@lovesciencemedia.com. You’ll get a personal reply, and if your letter is ever used on-site, it will be shortened and details including your name will be changed to protect your identity.
THE SURVEY with results:
With special thanks to the 29 Wise Readers who responded. Please NOTE that this is an informal survey, not a scientific one. The scientific results appear in the above article.
Text at the start of the survey:
Wise Readers,
It happens. Sometimes, an outsider—an old flame, a new flame, an unknown, an all-too-known—makes a play for our partner. Maybe it’s someone throwing themselves at our husband, or wife, or boyfriend, or girlfriend; maybe it’s subtler than that. But whether the interloper is representing as just-a-friend or an open threat, our Spidey Senses are suddenly on red alert.
What do you think a person should do in that situation—if anything? That’s the subject of this week’s questionnaire, and next week’s LoveScience. This link will be up until Saturday, so please answer the short (5-item, anonymous) questionnaire yourself—and then pass the link along to others.
Thanks, and I look forward to presenting your answers and the science next week.
Cheers,
Duana
1. What is your gender?
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Male 17% Female 83% |
2. What is your age?
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18 to 24: 3% 25 to 34: 14% 35 to 44: 52% 45 to 54: 21% 55 to 64: 3% 65 to 74: 7% 75 and up: 0% |
3. Have you ever been in a situation where you suspected or knew a partner of yours was being pursued by someone else while you were together?
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No: 21% Yes:79% |
|
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4. A woman we’ll call Tricia suspects her boyfriend’s ex is still emotionally invested in him. The ex and the boyfriend spend time together—at concerts, movies, home—to which Tricia is uninvited (because, as her boyfriend says, “It would hurt her to see us together”) and of which Tricia is sometimes uninformed. Tricia has two questions for you, Wise Reader.
The first is this: In your opinion, how much contact is appropriate between Tricia’s boyfriend and his ex-girlfriend, who appears to still harbor feelings for him while he claims they are ‘very good friends’?
Results:
—55% favored zero contact.
—38% favored contact with conditions, such as only if Tricia is present, only if others are present, only if Tricia knows about the contact, or only via phone or rare circumstances.
—7% said it’s the boyfriend’s choice.
Responses:
Woman age 45+—I’d be okay with a certain amount of contact, but not if I were excluded from their interaction.
Woman age 45+—Very occasional and only in a group no 1:1 events. I find it interesting that he would put the feelings of his ex ahead of those of his current girlfriend.
Woman age 25+—This contact is absolutely not appropriate to me.
Woman age 35+—Minimal, and only when others are present.
Woman age 35+—No contact is appropriate if it makes his partner uncomfortable. I say this, especially since he is putting his ex’s feeling above his partner’s feelings. And, if he has to hide what he’s doing, he obviously has some guilt about it…and is unwilling to admit his lingering feelings. He has chosen to exclude his girlfriend in favor of his ex…that speaks volumes without his ever saying a word.
Man age 55+—Zero
Woman age 35+—minimal (only if necessary because of kids etc.) to none
Man age 45+—Since Tricia isn’t married to this man then he can have as much contact as he wants with his ex.
Woman age 65+—no contact is appropriate….it’s not as if they’re sharing custody of a child. If he truly cares about his present girlfriend, he should have nothing to do with the ex-girlfriend.
Man age 25+—None without Tricia’s knowledge, if BF wants to stay in the relationship. Disagreeing is one thing, which discussion can work out. Sneaking is another. That’s not to say that Tricia has final say over what BF does, but rather that Tricia is allowed to set what rules she expects of anyone she stays in a relationship with.
Woman age 35+—How much is not as important as context. He’s telling her exactly what she needs to know: the ex would be hurt to see the new couple. That means that the ex still has feelings for the boyfriend, and it also means that he’s indulging - if not outright reciprocating - those feelings. Most people spend large blocks of time away from our SO’s and near other potential mates, especially at work or school. In secure relationships, though, partners work to build and maintain intimacy with their partners— which is always to the exclusion of others. In my experience, if one pulls toward one, he pulls away from another. From the limited information I have here, I think it’s clear that what he is doing has the effect of creating instability and insecurity in their relationship.
Woman age 35+—No contact – it’s time to move on!
Woman age 35+—None
Woman age 35+—Not much. Whether he thinks so or not, he’s leading on both of them.
Woman age 65+—If he truly cares for Tricia and he is only friends with his ex, he should include Tricia in outings. Otherwise he’s still dating his ex.
Man age 45+—Less. But ok to have some level of friendship.
Woman age 25+—I would set up a three way date so that I could get to know her as a friend. If she really is as cool as he says, and if they’re such good friends, she should want to get to know his current girlfriend.
Woman age 35+—NONE
Woman age 35+—no contact alone and no planned contact
Woman age 25+—If there are no kids involved, an EX is an EX, there is a reason you split, so keep your distance. If you wanted to spend time with them and not the current girl/boyfriend, then there are definitely issues. You should want to be with your current girl/boyfriend in everything you do.
Woman age 35+—An occasional phone call is acceptable and if he wants to spend time with the ex then the three of them could go out together.
Woman age 35+—None unless Tricia is present and included every time. Sounds to me like he wants the ex hanging around as a contingency plan in case things don’t work out with Tricia.
Woman age 35+—Tricia is kidding right? Is anyone out there actually that stupid?
Woman age 35+—The boyfriend has to decide for himself what that level is and set that boundary for both women.
Woman, age 45+—none, because he clearly still has feelings for her too. otherwise, he would not keep his girlfriend so out of the loop.
Woman age 35+—Very little. If they are actually “very good friends’, then nobody should be hurting whatsoever.
Woman age 45+—If the boyfriend is not inviting Tricia then I would assume it is for his feelings and not those of his ex. Tricia should inform him that she is uncomfortable with the secrecy in which he has been conducting these “dates” and that he needs to cut off contact to allow the ex-girlfriend to move on or lose you.
Man age 18+—I would not put up with any contact.
Woman age 35+—None. If it would hurt the ex to see Tricia with her boyfriend, the ex is a threat.
5. Tricia’s second question to you is this:
In your opinion, what’s her best bet for minimizing the threat the ex-girlfriend poses to Tricia’s relationship?
Responses:
Woman age 45+—Befriend her. And make clear what her expectations of the boyfriend are. If she is clear that she expects him to be exclusive in their intimate relationship, then she’s done all she can do. Beyond that, it’s up to him to sort out his feelings about the two women.
Woman age 45+—Find a different boyfriend. This one isn’t going to put her feelings before his wants and needs.
Woman age 25+—It’s hard to say what she should do without knowing more about Tricia, her bf, his ex, and the nature of their relationships. If it were me, I would make it clear to him (indirectly, in a non-aggressive or non-“naggy” way) that their contact and relationship is not appropriate. I would communicate to him (again, in a non-confrontational manner, or as much as I can be with this type of topic) that if he didn’t knock it off, then I would leave. So, I would essentially leave it up to him to pick between the ex or me. I personally don’t think a man who is NOT willing to sacrifice this type of odd relationship with an ex flame, for a current loving relationship, is a keeper anyway. To me, the fact that he is entertaining this relationship with the ex says that he’s emotionally immature and probably not ready to be in a serious committed relationship. But again, it’s all very difficult to say without knowing more about Tricia and her bf, like their ages and history together.
Woman age 35+—Break up with the boyfriend.
Woman age 35+—I think Tricia is in deep water with her boyfriend. It’s obvious that he’s having a hard time making up his mind who his priority is. In my opinion, nothing she does will make her boyfriend choose her, unless she makes it clear that he may possibly lose her if he can’t make up his mind. Intervening directly will only risk causing more of a conflict between her and her boyfriend, may embarrass him…and cause him to turn to his ex even more. That being said…she could start asking and EXPECTING him to check in with her and tell her when this ex is around, she can ask him to avoid events with her that she is excluded from, especially entertainment type events. If he refuses…he’s obviously made his choice, and it’s not Tricia…unfortunately.
Man age 55+—She needs to terminate the partnership immediately.
Woman age 35+—She could try to go with them, but that may not be very pleasant for her
Man age 45+—She needs to talk with her boyfriend and find out what is the status of his relationship with his ex. If it’s more than she is comfortable with then she needs to let him know that. At that point the ball is in his court to make a choice.
Woman age 65+—Give him an ultimatum—it’s either her or me. You have a day to decide. Why would Present Girlfriend want to continue seeing him if he’s going to treat her this way?!
Man age 25+—Honest discussion. Not mind games and threats and childish manipulations, but serious, rational discussion, as well as the realization that sometimes the discussion will not go her way, with a clear idea of what she will do in the event that it doesn’t.
Woman age 35+—Well, you have to come from a place of peace in your heart that you recognize that this situation isn’t good for you and accept the possibility that it might be ending. Then, state the following: “She clearly has feelings for you, and you aren’t discouraging them. It isn’t right for you to string us both along like this. I (Tricia) am stepping back (out of the relationship) to let you clarify your feelings. As soon as I’m ready, I’ll be dating again.” — Then do exactly that. Don’t waiver. Don’t go back and forth. Your determination will either help clarify that he desperately wants you and won’t be so stupid again, or will save you precious months and years spent pining over someone who doesn’t deserve your love.
Woman age 35+—Tell the boyfriend how she feels and have him talk to the ex-girlfriend and if that doesn’t work, it’s her turn to talk to her with the boyfriend.
Woman age 35+—Dump the boyfriend if he doesn’t stop seeing the ex
Woman age 35+—First she needs to decide whether he’s worth keeping. He’s manipulating both her and his ex, taking advantage of the situation. I’d call him on it, because he may not be aware of it. If he continues hanging out with the ex after he’s been made aware of how he’s taking advantage of her, then again I’d seriously consider whether this is the type of man I want to be in a relationship with. I think threats to the relationship provide an opportunity to determine how much the partners can trust each other. I think the best bet for minimizing such a threat is remaining calm, not turning into a whiny bitch, and making it clear that you’re not going to play the game. He’s free to go or stay, as he chooses. But then again, I did that and lost a man I could have loved for the rest of my life. So what do I know?
Woman age 65+—Walk away. She deserves someone who will give her the respect and consideration she deserves, not someone who is using her affection to bolster his ego.
Man age 45+—Jealousy is NOT it!
Woman age 25+—Get to know the Ex. You are less likely to dislike or keep secrets from someone you know. Once the Ex and Tricia get to know a little about one another, the Ex may feel that she can let the boyfriend go and have closure.
Woman age 35+—This depends on how strong their relationship is. If she’s confident, I would speak with him reasonably and have him put himself in her shoes. Personally I would NEVER put up with it. I would give an ultimatum - Her or me, but be prepared for him to choose her! =(
Woman age 35+—She should act like a high-status woman and end the relationship if the boyfriend continues planning one-on-one time with the other woman.
Woman age 25+—I would give him the ultimatum, It’s her or me. She had her chance and you left her. If you want her back, end it now before anybody gets too hurt. He should WANT to be fully devoted to his new girl. Or… fair is fair…. Start hanging out with your ex….
Woman age 35+—The ex-girlfriend is not the threat, it is the current boyfriend. He still has feelings for his ex and will not be able to have a healthy relationship with someone else until his feelings are resolved. In my opinion, Tricia needs to re-evaluate her relationship and determine if she should invest anymore time in it.
Woman age 35+—If the ex poses a threat, the best bet might be to end the relationship. It doesn’t sound like Tricia has the level of trust needed to make it work. This might be a sign of a much bigger problem than just a heartbroken ex.
Woman age 35+—Hit the dumb bitch in the kneecaps with a crowbar. Or move on. Or both. I pick both. Also, he needs a throw down.
Woman age 35+—In a secure trusting relationship, there is no threat.
Woman, age 45+—state her needs, draw a line in the sand. and then he gets to choose, her or me. the “it would hurt her to see us together” is the telling comment. whether he knows it or not, HE still has feelings for her (the ex).
Woman age 35+—The problem is with the boyfriend. Either he is fooling himself about the ex’s level of interest, or he doesn’t care. This has to be dealt with, and I think head-on is the best way. Tricia MUST maintain a high-degree of self-esteem because the boyfriend sounds like the kind of guy who’s going to throw the “don’t you trust me” and “why are you so intimidated” stuff at her. I would tell him that I don’t care for the two of them hanging out by themselves. Period. If they are actually friends, then there is no reason why she would feel hurt to see Tricia as well. When he balks, I would point out that this sentiment specifically suggests that she has feelings, and by his not acting in a smart way, he is encouraging the ex to stay bonded. If they are truly just friends, then some lunches alone would be no big deal at all. But for right now, I would definitely test his resolve about seeing her one-on-one, and if he’s not willing to do that, honestly, I would move on to someone else. I’m not wasting my time with someone who’s either (1) insensitive to his girlfriend, (2) cheating, or (3) just plain stupid.
Woman, age 45+—Go directly to the Ex-girlfriend and talk to her. Ask her what the nature of the relationship is (if you don’t trust the boyfriend) but then again if you don’t trust him….move on.
Man age 18+—Leave the guy! Give him an ultimatum. It’s her or me!
Woman age 35+—I think Tricia’s boyfriend is part of the problem because he’s already hiding his time with the ex and won’t let Tricia come along. My opinion is that maybe the boyfriend is also emotionally involved with the ex and it’s not just one sided. This isn’t a husband so I think Tricia should consider dumping a man who’s already this disloyal. If she won’t do that though, I think she should be creative about making the ex look bad in the eyes of her boyfriend and she should pop in on them unexpectedly and join in the fun without waiting for an invitation.
Other responses (from Facebook, on-site, and private messages):
Woman—When my guy was hit on, I would join in, tease him about it, “Ooh aren’t you, irresistible!” It always made me feel proud of him and happy to see him feeling attractive. It juiced up our own relationship. I never had to worry about him straying. I was lucky that way. Past tense, yes we split up a long time ago but it was for other reasons.
Woman—In my opinion, it’s your partner’s job to fend off the person. Coming from you wouldn’t mean much to them if they already know that you’re together. It could possibly embarrass your partner, too, if you cut in and say something. Also, sometimes they really aren’t making a play for your partner. An immature/ insecure person can confuse friendliness with flirting. However, if it makes you uncomfortable, even if it’s not a real play, and isn’t “flirting”…you should say something to your partner and devise a plan together about what to do. You don’t have to define the issue to decide how to combat it together.
Man— Part of me thinks that it is up to the partner, rather than me. It is a problem with the partner or the relationship if the partner is considering it. Better to know sooner. Or, they’re trying to provoke jealousy to confirm to themselves that they are valuable to you. I feel if someone wants to be in my life, they will choose me. It is not my job to fend others off. It is my job to build the best relationship possible with my partner. I realize this may not be in line with common responses to this, but it was my response when it happened while dating someone.
Woman—let it slip that they poop in the shower or something equally disgusting…lol.
Woman—I love your articles! I would hope my partner would do that for me, though.
Woman—i usually give nasty looks and give them a nice friendly warning to back off my man or face physical harm…..
Woman—My two cents is that if you see that someone (male or female) is in a relationship, you are being obnoxious and disrespectful if you decide to go ahead and flirt with/pursue that person. Yes, they should set boundaries, but out of respect for a person’s relationship (and YOURSELF!), WAIT until that relationship ends (and it might not!) to go for it. I have heard all the bullshit about people being naturally flirtatious, men being that way because they are biologically programmed to spread their seed, but we’ve now procreated ENOUGH! It’s time to make the decision to respect our relationships (and also, to not commit until we’re truly ready!), stop flirting with everyone and their mother (unless they are SINGLE!), and learn that good relationships take WORK!
Woman—If a man (woman) is attracted to you, and would prefer to be with you over the person they are currently with, they should LEAVE them and go be with you!!!
Woman—true, you are about empowering the person asking the question, but they should make a pill for insecurity-it causes its own problems!
Woman—I never find out till after the fact. I am the baby from which candy is taken. :) That’s probably why I eat candy so quickly.
Man—How about an adult response, such as discussing this with your partner. In other words, explain to your partner what this other person is doing, why the person’s actions are rude and disrespectful, and how those actions makes you feel. Hopefully your partner will be enlightened, and will do something about it immediately.
Woman—Watch with amusement. They have no idea…
Related LoveScience articles:
—Various LS articles about affair prevention: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/tag/affair-prevention
—Various LS articles about affair recovery: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/tag/affair-recovery
—How men (more than women) can effectively use signs of love and affection and commitment to keep a mate/prevent infidelity: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/her-cheatin-heart-infidelitys-aftermath.html
—Various LoveScience articles about jealousy: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/display/Search?moduleId=9130610&searchQuery=jealousy
—How women win back a man with jealousy: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/winning-him-backwith-jealousy.html
—Women, men, and ‘just Friends’: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/can-men-and-women-really-be-just-friendsand-nothing-more.html and http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/qa-from-can-men-and-women-really-be-just-friends.html
—The male brain in love: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/when-men-wait-for-sex-dumb-like-a-fox.html
The author wishes to thank the following scientists and sources:
David M. Buss, for his global research on sex differences in fending off a would-be mate poacher, plus his books on Jealousy, Mating Psychology, and text on Evolutionary Psychology.
Shirley Glass, for her decades-long scientific studies of how affairs happen, why, how to move past them, and how to prevent them to start with. Her book NOT ‘Just Friends’ is a must for anyone fearful of or struggling with an affair or its aftermath—including the person who had the affair.
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Reader Comments (12)
I like the article, especially the advice at the end.
I'm assuming Tricia and Dave have no children together because none are mentioned. If children are part of the equation, would your advice be different ...?
Hi, Gillian,
Good to hear from you again. What's interesting to me is that Buss' and others' data are from couples who are dating, couples who are married, couples who have kids, couples who don't, couples who are young, couples who are older...yet with all that diversity, the responses are rather similar. Just as with our Survey respondents, the array of strategies 'varies from vigilance to violence' (Buss' words). Good mates are hard to find and can be even harder to keep; folks in the know don't simply hand them over to a rival.
So I would have given the same advice if the situation were identical but children were involved, with one caveat; I would have been slower --much, much slower-- to dismiss the primary relationship between Dave and Tricia, simply because more people were counting on it and children with two in-home, loving parents tend to do so much better in so many ways than those without. As a recent NYT article put it, "a growing body of research indicates that no other parental arrangement, from single motherhood to cohabitation to shared custody, affords as many social, economic and emotional advantages as being raised by two biological parents joined in a lifelong commitment." (From 'Gay Parents & The Marriage Debate', here: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/11/gay-parents-and-the-marriage-debate/). Everything I know about the research backs that up.
But Dave and Tricia are not only childless--they've been together just a short while. Given what's known about future cheating when cheating has occurred early on, I think she's best off if she dumps the chump.
My thoughts on this are, if your feeling this way this soon into the relationship, things wont most likely change. I myself had an ex like this, and the lies and deceit werent worth the emotions that I was going through.
Good Luck to you!!
Dear Two Of Us:
Well said through the voice of experience. Agreed!
This reminds me of a book and movie (The Nanny Diaries) where the rich, socialite wife discovered her husband cheating. Instead of dumping him or spreading rumors to get rid of his mistress, the wife feigned a pregnancy and enlisted the help of her mother-in-law to start preparing the nursery. This worked to save her marriage temporarily, but ultimately the wife realized her husband wasn't worth being married to. The kicker? This was the husband's second marriage. The wife herself had started out as his mistress!
As heartbreaking as it is, Tricia has been blessed to see Dave's true colors sooner rather than later. I vote to dump him.
However, I likewise vote that when children are involved, the chumps should be dumped with much less speed and much more care.
I guess my point is that husbands should be thoroughly vetted before marriage. If they have a history of disloyalty, violence, or selfishness, run. What he has done to another, he will do to you.
Agree?
And besides, I would feel sick about myself if I slandered another person. It's just not worth it. How awful the day I wake up to realize I piled garbage on another woman (Megan) in order to keep a pile of garbage (Dave) for myself. Stinks.
Though I suppose this is what makes the Tudor-era novels (ala Henry VIII) so much fun to read. The juicy court intrigue mostly centers around catty women (and some men) telling lies about the other women in order to keep their power and position. Of course that is from a time when a woman's power depended upon the man to whom she was attached. Fortunately today women who have good educations and marketable career skills can walk away from that.
The article doesn't mention if Tricia is in school (?) If she's not, she should be. And at the best school possible to meet (and vet) Mr. Right.
Thanks for your patience with my ramblings. I really like your article.
Gillian, thanks. "I guess my point is that husbands should be thoroughly vetted before marriage. If they have a history of disloyalty, violence, or selfishness, run. What he has done to another, he will do to you."
Exactly. Increasingly, research shows that the most important decision any of us will make in adulthood is our choice of marriage partner; it will have a greater impact on our happiness and the stability of future generations than any other choice we make. A guy who's a chump from the start is extremely unlikely to become a champ later on. Choose wisely~and the best basis for wise choice is the prospective partner's past behavior.
So I agree, agree, and agree.
The only part I have any issue with at all is your statement that you'd be sick if you slandered another person. I agree with you in Tricia's case; besmirching Tricia's own character is hardly worth doing to defend someone so unworthy. But otherwise? Being Catty is demonstrably one of the most expedient, effective and low-cost routes towards protecting the relationship that is at the core of not just one's own personal happiness, but the future happiness and stability of one's children. When one's mate, often one's very foundation for nearly every life decision and all security for oneself and and one's progeny, is on the line, slander would be among the least expensive options. It isn't pretty, but neither is a broken home--and the latter is so much more costly in every way.
Upshot?
Tricia's finished with school, but she's worth more than this fool. She has the degree, now she'd do best to flee. (And clearly, we're lucky I avoid poetry.)
Tricia definitely needs to "dump the chump" ! Wonder if the role was reversed if you would give the same advice. Men, at least this one, are not very good at playing games, maybe more of a physical response to the other guy.
When in my 20's I dated a beautiful woman for 6 months who made my life miserable with jealousy and other attention-grabbing behavior. I had never been jealous before or after this so I guess that is why I remember it so well. My friends saw what was going on and had an "intervention" with me to break up with her. I did and although I hurt, I did not look back.
This is the most classic advice column question you have ever answered. In fact, I cannot resist quoting this Facebook post from my brilliant kid sister here:
"It seems the majority of all advice column's letters start out with...1) I'm dating the man of my dreams, except for the fact that he's a total a-hole in this major way _____.
OR
2) My boyfriend is a complete doink that I enable, why won't he stop being a doink?
~Of course I'm paraphrasing for brevity/clarity."
Yeah, that.
Dear Mocha's Mom-- lol. This is the most classic advice column answer I've ever *avoided*, is more like it. It took dozens (if not more) of letters like Tricia's before I was worn down enough to respond publicly and not only privately. It's a hard thing to be asked how to keep someone around who, in my opinion, is not worth keeping around. But my job, as I see it, is to give the information even if I don't like something about the information or situation. So this article finally happened.
Dear Vincent-- if only more folks did 'interventions' with their friends, I wonder what the social landscape would look like. Would it be littered with the detritus of doomed relationships--or the remains of legitimate friendships? Although the former is hoped, the latter seems likely. That would make for an interesting study in itself.
As for a woman who made you miserable with jealousy-inducing behaviors, my guess per science is that she felt that she was more invested in the relationship than you were, and she was testing the bond. Most women who intentionally create jealousy are doing that (see article linked above on jealousy). My second guess is that she was in part correct that you weren't *that* into her. What do you think?
Wise Readers, my host for this site is experiencing some technical difficulties, one of which is that the end of each line from Survey question #3's responses has been cut off. Here is a re-print of those responses:
If you answered Yes, please tell me more about the situation, what you did in response, and whether you got the outcome you wanted.
Responses:
Woman age 45+--I try to be up front about my concerns, my fears, my own insecurities, and trust that my partner will shut down anyone outside our relationship. I don't feel the need to intervene beyond that, because I trust that he's not encouraging that attention. I guess if I thought he was encouraging it, I might feel differently.
Woman age 25+--I didn't take much action because I knew he wasn't interested in the person. It was an ex girlfriend whom he was not attracted to anymore. She attempted to contact him but he refused to meet with her and he generally distanced himself from contact with her. I didn't say much to him - I listened to his "complaints" and was supportive. I didn't badmouth her and I was sympathetic but distanced myself from the situation. Had I gotten signals that he was interested, or curious, then I would have acted differently.
Woman age 35+--I honestly thought I was about to start a cat fight.
Woman age 35+--I talked to my partner about it and decided on a plan of how to respond that worked for both of us. Trust is important...and it has to be fostered. Even if there wasn't a real play or pursuit, it helped to devise a response together.
Woman age 35+--discovered multiple affairs - divorced him!
Woman age 65+--My husband said he was going to meet one of his business associates for lunch, and my antennae went out as this was something totally out of the norm for him. At a recent party, I had witnessed one of his business associates definitely making a play for him...right in front of me! So, when he returned from the aforementioned luncheon, I asked him point-blank if he had met so-and-so for lunch; he very sheepishly replied that he had. I let him know in no uncertain terms that "that dog was not going to hunt", and that put an end to it.
Man age 25+--An old flame went for my at-the-time fiancée...at the time I was naive enough to think that my love really was all she wanted. Now I am painfully well aware that love alone does not a marriage make. He was simply better situated in life at the time, and I was simply out-manned. She made her choice, and as devastating to me as it was, it was the right one for her. And as I truly did want her to be as happy as I could make her, and still do, I do not begrudge her her choice. That said, it took me a very long time to ever allow myself to be vulnerable in any relationship again (several years). In fact, I was married for five years before I could allow myself to believe that the marriage was in fact stable...I was convinced that it was going to end with me getting my emotional guts ripped out. I've heard that science is actually now showing that a painful break-up can have health consequences that are as real and traumatic and lasting as getting into a car accident. I know that to be true. The pain was by far the worst I have ever been through.
Woman age 35+--Of course, our mates are human and might enjoy an occasional flirt. I have no problem with that as long as the bond between us is strong. But when it crosses the line -- when the flirt continues at every function the two of them attend, when I see glances that linger, I'll mention it. And I have. My ex-husband had a very flirtatious relationship with a co-worker. She was pretty and younger and had a fabulous rack (let's just be honest -- that was intimidating). I tried to play along, but at one dinner they simply crossed the line. I can't even tell you what it was, but I could tell that it was no longer innocent. I told him that it made me uncomfortable, and instead of acknowledging that and taking steps to ensure our bond was getting stronger while theirs was superficial, he grudgingly, loudly, took the steps I asked of him -- and no more. He tried to make me feel guilty for questioning him. That was very early in our marriage, and it was just a preview for the whole 15 year event. I'm now in a relationship in which I know things are very different. We've had events where something made me uncomfortable (not a flirtation -- I honestly can't remember exactly what it was) :), I told him, and he immediately took steps to ease my discomfort. He did it willingly - happily - because he never wanted me to feel uncomfortable in our relationship. That's what is supposed to happen, and it's wonderful. :)
Woman age 35+--Warned my partner.
Woman age 35+--His ex-wife was still in prison. He started visiting her and taking their children to see her. He managed to confuse himself about which one of us he wanted, and I told him that at some point he would have to make a choice: One of us would be his wife, and the other his friend. I did not make it an ultimatum; I don't react well when people do that to me, so I don't do it to others. I made it clear that I was giving him only the facts, but that I would not be "the other woman." He dropped me like a hot brick when she got out of prison. I fought as hard as I could to talk him out of it, but he wouldn't listen. There's a lot more to the story - a LOT of emotional baggage on his part - but those are the basic facts. It angered me because at first she said she didn't want anything to do with him, that it was over between them, but apparently she figured out that she could use him again. With time and perspective, I know I'm better off without him, but I keep thinking about it because we could have been so happy together. He's just so emotionally damaged he couldn't see it.
Woman age 65+--He and his ex were 'the best of friends' but he assured me repeatedly that there was nothing intimate in their friendship. I believed him till he and his 'best friend' planned a weekend trip to Las Vegas for his birthday--a weekend to which I was not invited. When I suggested the ex might have designs on re-establishing the relationship, he became enraged over my jealousy.
Man age 45+--More than one situation. Chose to trust my partner, period. That gave me about an 80% failure rate.
Woman age 25+--A good looking female was talking to my partner at a bar and started doing the playful things that I would do when we were courting, ex. Light hitting, hair flipping, touching his arm, etc. I walked over to him, held his hand and introduced myself. If she was a friend he knew previously, I didn't want to make assumptions. She introduced herself and left shortly thereafter. I feel I made my point in a non-confrontational way.
Woman age 35+--I made sure my partner knew, I knew what the pursuer was doing. Next time we were together, I made it well known that we were happy by showing extra affection and making affectionate comments. I ensured that they NEVER got the opportunity to spend time alone together.
Woman age 25+--There was a woman at his job who used my husband as a sounding board because her marriage was having issues. So at first he was her emotional support. She started wearing shorter skirts and more revealing blouses. She was very nice to me. But I know my hubby can't resist a skirt, and I think she knew it.... "oops I dropped my pen". So one day he confessed to me that he had masturbated to the thought of her. That hurt me, but it could have been a lot worse. He could have acted on her. I don't think she would have held back. She was already throwing herself at him. They were smoke buddies. I didn't blow up. I did let him know I was hurt. I told him I wanted them to quit hanging out together. I reversed the situation so he could see how it would affect him. It took him a few months to break the ties, so she didn't freak out. She was known to be the type of girl to get a guy in trouble at work and get him fired if you pissed her off. So he had to do it carefully. He actually quit smoking with me which gave him an even bigger reason to not go out with her. She moved on and he was free from her without any strings attached, no harm done and his still has his job and reputation. I always reverse the scenario. If you can catch it in time before the real harm is done you can play this card. It is hard to trust again. After several years I trust him 98%. There is no need for high school drama of yelling and screaming, that pushes them away, leaving him to think you are psychotic. After all, we are adults, talking it out is always best, besides what if you slipped up one day. How would you want them to handle you?
Woman age 35+--My husband's ex-wife was trying to get him back. She would call him up to ten times a day and she would have the kids beg him to come home and live with her. I came over for a few days and she didn't know I was going to be there. She made another one of her calls and I answered the phone. I asked her, "Do you keep calling David and asking him to come back to you?" She stayed quiet for a while, seemingly in shock that I would ask this. I then told her to only call him regarding the children and to quit begging him to come back to her. He was with me now and she was the one that made the choice to end the marriage. She had to live with that choice. A few days later, the kids came over and his daughter, age 5 at the time, asked me why I told her mom to never call her dad again. I told the daughter that the conversation I had with her mother was between adults and that I did not tell her never to call her dad again. When she was older, if she wanted to revisit this we would discuss it.
Woman age 35+--I assertively stepped in and attempted to redirect the conversation and ultimately end it in hopes the woman would go away.
Woman age 35+--….The old man's ex-fiancée decided she wanted him back. Compounding the problem was the fact that she was now/then working for my ex-best friend's company, and they two of them decided to collude on this issue. They started by spreading a rumour that got right back to my mother that I was hooking…And then it escalated from there. I called in a favour with an old friend and had her current boyfriend arrested on an ages old warrant. He had legally changed his name, and the warrant was for a couple of misdemeanor charges, so no one really bothered to put any effort into it. At least, not until they were given a specific address. Then I tipped off the other board members of her mother's very Catholic charity committee that she was, in fact, a flaming lesbian…I don't care about anyone's sexuality. . .But the Catholic charity sure did. [I continued making her life a living hell by calling various entities that could and did wreck her auto loans, business, job, etc.]. After all that, the ex found that she just had too much going on in her life to pursue my husband. Poor thing….
Woman, age 45+--Yes I have. Boyfriend was two timing us BOTH, as it turned out. Nice. A clean break is the only way to go.
Woman age 35+--Sure. Many times. I just let it happen while giving knowing looks to my spouse, and find a way giggle with him about it later. My husband is hot. Really, I think that you have to deal with this on the "investment end" by continuing to be actively interested in your partner, and actively interesting to him. And then don't be shocked when someone makes a play. It's going to happen and it's probably not HIS fault (unless it is and that's an entirely different problem). Recognizing the play for what it is has always (seemed) to work for me because (I think) he doesn't feel berated for something that's not his fault, and it impresses upon him that not only do I think he's sexy, but plenty of others do, too. I think continuing to feel good about yourself helps you to be actually happy in your relationship, and reduces the likelihood of cheating.
Woman age 45+--My husband was approached and started an online relationship with a woman. My response was to confront him with the information and tell him to end the relationship or the marriage.
Man, age 18+--Funny story, it was actually an ex of mine pursuing my partner! My response probably wasn't the best. I confronted the interloper directly and threatened to ruin his reputation with mutual friends of ours.
Woman age 35+--I was a newlywed, and my husband's family hired this nubile, hot, single, openly flirtatious woman to work in the family business. Goody, she'd be working side by side with him every day. She made no bones about showing she thought the sun shone out his backside. She flirted with him in front of me, tried to be alone with him whenever possible, and touched him on the arm or draped an arm around him when she could. He had this deer in headlights look about him, as if he were confused but drawn toward the light. I wasn’t having it. I know someone’s bound to say “If they want to stray then they’re going to and nothing you can do will stop it,” but I’m calling bull on that. This was not some casual interest of mine, this was MY HUSBAND. I didn’t give up on him, or me, or us, but I decided to get rid of her. I put in a bad word about her work and personal habits with his parents who owned the business. I told my husband that she was flirting and I wanted him to avoid being alone with her. He thought I was overreacting but he did as I asked. I dropped in at work and spent time with her. She didn’t last long. This was the only time I was jealous and it didn’t happen again and that was in 1998. Yes I got the outcome I wanted.
Vincent, to your core question: Should men pursue the same strategies as women--or are men kind of above all that? Are women the only catty ones—or should they be? When men are in Tricia’s position—knowing someone else is making a play for their partner, and that the partner may be (or is) reciprocating—what do they do?
Well, as I said to Gillian above, valuable mates can be tough to find and harder to keep, so if a guy thinks his mate is worth having, he’s very unlikely to go gently into that good night and just let someone else take her away.
A lot of the strategies used by men and women are highly similar, with predictable spins.
Be Vigilant:
Both sexes become highly vigilant—but men are MUCH more likely to become highly violent. Male jealousy is the top threat to female life everywhere in the world, for females aged 15-appx 55—the fertile years during which men are most consumed with paternity assurance (making sure the kids are genetically his and not a rival's). As Helen Fisher, anthropologist, has pointed out, we live and die for love. What David Buss points out more clearly is that it's mostly men doing the killing--both of rivals, and of mates.
Men, too, show what Buss terms ‘physical signs of possession’, such as holding his partner closer when a rival is in sight~a legal, socially acceptable, and effective alternative to violence and stalking.
Be Wealthy & Generous:
Whereas women—particularly women mated with high-status men—ramp up their appearance so as to keep a mate, men ramp up their ambition and resources to encourage their mate to stick around. And that’s a good idea, because a top reason women defect to be with another man is that the current mate lacks resources, but the future mate can and will provide. To wit, this very sad Survey response from a man age 25+:
“An old flame went for my at-the-time fiancée...at the time I was naive enough to think that my love really was all she wanted. Now I am painfully well aware that love alone does not a marriage make. He was simply better situated in life at the time, and I was simply out-manned. She made her choice, and as devastating to me as it was, it was the right one for her. And as I truly did want her to be as happy as I could make her, and still do, I do not begrudge her her choice. That said, it took me a very long time to ever allow myself to be vulnerable in any relationship again (several years). In fact, I was married for five years before I could allow myself to believe that the marriage was in fact stable...I was convinced that it was going to end with me getting my emotional guts ripped out. I've heard that science is actually now showing that a painful break-up can have health consequences that are as real and traumatic and lasting as getting into a car accident. I know that to be true. The pain was by far the worst I have ever been through.”
Be Catty:
Women aren’t the only ones. Around the world, men, too, tell lies about their rivals to discourage their mates’ possible attraction to The Other Man. But whereas women tend to lie about stuff men care about, such as fidelity and fecundity, men tend to lie about stuff women care about, such as resources. A man trying to dissuade his partner’s interest in another guy might say something like, “He borrowed that car to pick up women; I know for a fact he’s flat broke.”
And men and women alike are good at two things integral to Cattiness: a) knowing what their partner values in a mate, and b) making sure to denigrate the rival on precisely those aspects.
Be Jealous?:
Men, too, not only get jealous—it’s an adaptation important for both sexes, since guarding against mate poachers affects men and women alike—but some men(few, relative to the number of women using jealousy) try to create jealousy to bring a partner closer. In Buss’ research, for instance, men admitted to talking to another woman at a party for the express purpose of making the primary partner jealous, and/or showing interest in other women for that reason.
But creating jealousy usually doesn't work as well for men as for women. Why not? Well, straight men are being judged on the basis of their ability and also willingness to provide and protect. A man who's running away can appear to be lacking in the Willingness department.
Of course, there are ways to trash a rival's chances that I've not dealt with here. People are highly creative when it comes to making sure their mate sticks around. You can see that just from the wide array of responses at the Survey.
That said, it interested me that men, more than women, are likely to use love and care as a strategy to keep a mate. Because women value signs of commitment (aka Willingness), one of the most effective things a guy can do is just to be loving. (Women apparently either show commitment more than guys in general, or perhaps are just presumed--usually correctly--to value commitment anyway.)
And men are a lot more likely than women are to conceal a partner--literally try to hide her away from the world, forbidding her to speak or be near other men. Indeed, there are entire cultures where mate concealment is the law, but in all those cultures, it's only the women who are hidden, and the laws are written solely by the men.
Shocker? Men--not women--are most likely to use emotional manipulation to keep a partner. In Buss' textbook, he points out that men "tended to use acts of submission and self-abasement more than women. For example, more men than women reported groveling and saying that they would do anything their partner wanted to get the partner to stay in the relationship." (p. 344 of 'Evolutionary Psychology', third edition, Chapter 11: Conflict Between the Sexes, by David M. Buss).
And the more attractive and young--that is, reproductively viable--a man's mate is, the more he uses "partner concealment, emotional manipulation, verbal signals of possession (e.g., indicating that the woman was 'my wife'), possessive ornamentation (e.g., insisting that she wear his ring), intrasexual threats, and violence against rival men....These results held even after statistically controlling for other variables, such as the length of the relationship and the age of the husband (p. 345)."
Again it comes down to what men want--youth, beauty and fidelity--and what women want--willing and able provision and protection. The Smoke Alarm and the strategies for Putting Out The Fire map back onto those with startling regularity.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to say all that. Upshot? I probably would have given the same advice to a guy in Tricia's situation. Ultimately, though, it seems people have highly developed mechanisms for dealing with mate poachers themselves. Some of them may be vile, but all have 'worked' at times. Which is probably why they're still around.
For anyone wanting to know more about any aspect of mate poaching or jealousy or ways to deal with interlopers, I highly recommend David Buss' book on the topic:
The Dangerous Passion: Why jealousy is as necessary as love and sex. http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Passion-David-M-Buss/dp/1451673132/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1341320915&sr=8-2&keywords=david+buss+the+dangerous+passion