Q&A from "Passionate Kisses: Too much to ask?"

Wise Readers,

Your resounding response to the Passionate Kisses column?  No!—It’s not too much to ask!  Indeed, many of you insist on them.  Beyond that, you had questions: Why is the husband’s (but not wife’s) memory for courtship such an important predictor of whether a marriage will last?  Is it shallow to insist on passionate kisses from the very start of a relationship?  What do scientists really know about kissing?  Is there a distinction between emotional and physical passion—and can either one last forever? 

Read on!

From Quinn:  —Kissing: The Anytime, Anywhere Treat—

I am one of those people who place a high priority in weighing compatibility with someone. I’ve met women who would tell me early on they are not really affectionate or they’re not really into kissing. The ego in me would think “You just haven’t met the right guy!” LOL (Wrong!) The reality is it really isn’t some people’s thing. And while I am puzzled at how the fire is truly ignited without all the fireworks to use is a mystery to me.

I do like how you asked Bart to go back to focusing on what was important early on in his relationship which clearly was the foundation to their longevity. I am not sure you can lose passion if it was never really there but it appears passion can be defined by other things in couples and the preservation of what is most important I would imagine has to be the priority.

For me, the kiss is the one thing I can share with my partner at anytime/anywhere outside of the look in her eyes that can remind me of the bond I have, bridge me to the love I feel and paralyze my soul in the moment. When you have that with someone? That kiss…that passion, is never too much to ask in my book.

Great article as always!

Quinn

From Jackie:  

Great article! It’s funny: as I was reading, I was thinking, “Make a list!” But that is the girl in me. :-) Do passionate kisses need to be messy, deep and wet?

Duana’s responses:  

Quinn, thank you so much! Exceptionally well-said. And indeed, people can reclaim their love. Sometimes they need to remember it first…in detail (please see below). 

And Jackie, no! Passionate kisses can be whatever you think is passionate. It’s a self-defined thing. Some couples don’t like to kiss much, and some love it. And just as something isn’t a sexual problem unless the person him- or herself thinks it’s a problem, if you’re happy with the kissing, then whatever others (aside from your partner) thinks doesn’t matter.

That said, most women find messy, deep, wet kissing to be too much tonsil-tickling.

xox!

From Leslie:

 “No sparks,” kissing would be a TOTAL deal breaker for me! No way I could be attracted to someone if we weren’t meshing on so basic a level as that. I’ve absolutely ended relationships before they even really started based on a bad first kiss. Call me shallow if you want, but it’s VERY important as a litmus test for general compatibility and attraction, in my book.

Duana’s response:

Kissing is an act that anecdotal evidence shows is so intimate, many people consider it more intimate than sex—and as some Love Science readers and social scientists have noted, most prostitutes won’t kiss on the mouth for this reason.

So I’m with you, and I don’t think you’re being shallow to make passionate kisses a requirement (either that, or the majority of us are shallow, per Gallup’s research where people dumped a relationship over a bad first kiss). Emotionally speaking, the top reason we get involved with another person is for intimacy. If we hate (or even just don’t love) kissing our significant other, it’s a pretty good clue that the intimacy most of us require for a faithful, happy partnership is DOA.

From Candi and Monica:   —Why does *men’s* memory of a relationship matter, but women’s doesn’t matter as much?— 

Candi says:

It is interesting that the future happiness of the marriage is gauged by the husband’s recollection of the positive qualities of his wife and not necessarily the wife’s recollection of her husband’s positive qualities. Why do you think that is?

Monica says:

Interesting to me that future happiness can be gauged by the HUSBAND’S positive recollection of courtship and early marriage…

Duana’s response:

Monica and Candi, I, too, was struck with Gottman’s finding about husbands’ (but not wives’) memories of the past being a strong predictor of divorce. It is not entirely clear why this is so—just that it *is* so. That’s the trouble with correlational research; it doesn’t tell us what caused what (experiments do, but there are ethical hazards in randomly assigning some couples to nurse grudges!).

My best guess, based on other research about men’s emotional lives in marriage and dating, is that men are usually *more* (not less) romantic about their relationships than women are—so that when men lose that idealism and revise the past, their hope fizzles for the future, too. Withdrawing from a relationship and living separate, lonely lives under the same roof is the final stage before most couples divorce, and men tend to withdraw when they feel hopeless and harried about their marriage.

Good thing, then, that Gottman’s experimental research has shown that helping men to re-write their memories for the past to recall the happier days, restores that hope and helps men re-invest their hearts in the marriage.

From MPC:  

Duana-

I have a hypothesis about the comments you made in response to Monica’s comment above. (Full Disclosure to everyone else: Monica is my wife!). It may be that wives are generally just better at recalling details about courtship and early married life than husbands. If so, then the wife’s recollection - as a constant in the equation - would not be a determining factor in the success or failure of the long term relationship.

It’s just a hypothesis, but (and I may regret admitting this) Monica remembers way more details about our courtship and early married life than I do. I mean WAAAAAYYY more. I remember plenty of details — good details — but for sheer volume of data storage, Monica has me beat hands down.

Just my (cautiously tendered) $.02.

mpc

Duana’s (cautiously tendered) $.02 response—

Dear mpc/Monica’s spouse— That’s another worthy hypothesis! Some science shows that women process up to twice as much verbal information as men—and that could translate into recalling more. Nice idea—thanks for the insight.

—How Long Can Real Passion Last?—

From anonymous:  

Who are all these couples who claim to be passionately kissing years and decades later? I don’t know many people who have been married for a long time who have what you can really call passion in their marriages. It seems that these couples who are so desperately seeking “passion” are really longing for EMOTIONAL intimacy because they are not bonded, regardless of whether or not they are reasonably matched.

Passion seems to be fueled by what is new, dangerous, or exciting. Once the core needs of each spouse are met, how is it even possible to have regular displays of passion that aren’t disingenuous? The spiritual intermingling that happens when lips first meet is telling enough, no? If the kissing carries us to where true intimacy takes over, why should we so quickly turn our noses up to that?

From Kelly:  

Ah, Anonymous… The passion that you describe is of the raw variety - the kind that is about as sustainable as a sprint in a marathon. Just like love, passion matures with time and cultivation. If you choose your mate wisely and work very hard (those are not just pat phrases to be glossed over), you can certainly maintain a passion in your marriage. Of course, a couple passionately in love for 40 years won’t be seen crawling all over each other in a restaurant. But, back at the ranch after the kids have left and the dogs have died (to quote the incomparable Erma Bombeck), Katy bar the door… :) 
Passionate kisses have more to do with heart, spirit, connection, and chemistry than anything. And those things get better with time.

Duana: I love your “Make a list” suggestion. It is absolutely right on. For me, writing things down helps me make sense of the jumble of thoughts I have. It also helps me clarify and develop a rational understanding of my thoughts. One of the most healing things I did during my divorce (there was one of your listed “deal-breakers”) was to write down 10 things that he did that were right, that were good, and that showed a light on the part of him that I fell in love with to begin with. With a clearer understanding of him as a whole person, I was free to address the “deal-breaker” in a rational sense, rather than under the cloak of hurt and shame. In a basically good marriage, it would have helped me remember the love and passion we shared in an earlier time, and helped me re-establish those healthy connections.

Duana’s responses:

Dear Kelly and Anonymous—you’ve book-ended the passion topic nicely (Kelly, thank you for sharing your experience, and I’m sorry about the deal-breaker. Sounds like you handled things with maturity and grace.).

Let me add this: You are both correct.

Anonymous, what I call Mountaintop Passion does tend to decline over time (in fact, a ream of science indicates that marital satisfaction in general declines over time). Our own study bears this out: All but one of those who were partnered two years or less said they are “very” or “extremely” happy with their mate and their mate’s kiss—but just half of those partnered 8 or more years say the same.

And Kelly, you’re right as well. There is, indeed, a huge difference between living on what I call The Mountaintop—yearning for one’s beloved every moment you are apart—and having a deep, sustained, companionable love that is punctuated by moments of passionate celebration of your union. Scientists have been firming up the distinction since the 1970’s, and today, brain scan research is helping to determine whether there are some couples who *do* sustain Mountaintop Passion for a lifetime (Arthur Aron, Bianca Acevedo and others have found that about 10% of long-term couples show ventral tegmental area (VTA) brain activity and biochemical responses that are just as passionate as new lovers’—but for the other 90% of us, it appears likely we’re moving from Passionate to Companionate Love.). So, although the mountaintop-experience of Grand Passion declines almost universally after love’s first flush, moments of physical passion exist for most couples. I’d like to get into why so few couples have Mountaintop passion—and who those couples are likely to be—in a future column. Thanks for the idea :).

From Bart (Yes, THE Bart from the article):  

@anonymous,
I agree with your statement: “It seems that these couples who are so desperately seeking “passion” are really longing for EMOTIONAL intimacy because they are not bonded, regardless of whether or not they are reasonably matched.”

I think that emotional intimacy begins with a kiss, and getting a “spark” from your partner’s kiss should be essential in the beginning of a relationship if you have any long term aspirations with that person.

However, I believe that if a person marries later in life, after he or she has had several relationships, it is easier for he or she to overlook the kissing aspect of a relationship as less important. The clock is ticking so to speak, and a person may not be as focused on the physical aspect or “spark” of the relationship but may select a mate based on other traits of compatibility. This in and of itself is not bad, but in hindsight, I believe the “spark” of your partner’s kiss will be paramount to a person’s long-term satisfaction in the relationship and the emotional intimacy which it creates.

From Carmen: —Long, Long, Long-time Lovers—

@Kelly…I probably do not belong in this discussion thread, as my sweetheart and I have been married over 45 years. I still embarrass him in restaurants by doing covert acts under the table and insisting that he kiss me (it usually ends up being a peck in public, of course). But as Duana says…Katy, bar the door once we arrive home! To quote Jim Stafford, “When the kids leave home, we’ll make love in the kitchen…” The first time my sweetie kissed me, he tasted like strawberries. He still tastes like strawberries, and I still adore kissing him. Rest assured, we don’t roll in the hay every day of the week any more…and medical conditions require our lovemaking to be more creative these days…but we look forward to our Date Nights or Date Afternoons. We kiss each other good morning every day and good night after crawling in bed….and many times during the day, as we pass. There are little fanny-pats, shoulder-scratches. He’s still the hottest guy I’ve ever known.

Duana’s responses:

Bart—Those are solid observations. I think current science points to most people requiring a spark in their kissing from the outset, but doubtless you’re correct that a few settle for lackluster kissing—and they shouldn’t. There are cultures where passion is neither encouraged nor required for a marriage to begin or sustain, but ours is not one of those; and people who lack passion at home tend to look for it elsewhere.

On the other hand, I stand by the well-replicated finding that people who are not now happy revise their pasts as being gloomy….that therefore our memories that feel so real are often wrong….and that it’s far more common for people to incorrectly recall a passionless beginning, than it is for them to have *truly* had a dull start. Dr. Diane Holmberg, who did the research on newly married couples and found that now-unhappy couples could not recall the happiness she had documented just two years before, wrote to me privately to say she agrees with that assessment.

Carmen— Thank you for sharing your inspiring story of a lusty, long marriage. I got a huge kick out of it! The sort of sex you are talking about—where signs of affection and connectedness happen throughout the day, and the culmination in The Act is part of the overall picture—is the kind that fans the flames for a lifetime, as decades-long marriage research is increasingly documenting. I hope you’ll always feel very welcome here. Love Science is for everyone, and we can benefit from your wisdom and experience.

From Vincent:  

Carmen
I absolutely love your story. Kudos to you both! 

I am on my third marriage with the romantic remembrances on the preceding ones faded, although knowing myself and my needs must have been present.

With that said, I believe this time my wife and I share what you have. It sometimes  embarrasses our kids, but maybe that’s part of the fun ;)

My days are not complete without looking into my lovely wife’s eyes and kissing her so softly in the morning …and again throughout the day… and at least one, maybe more, before falling asleep.  The deeply meaningful hugs, the gentle pats add the extra icing.

After reading your story I said to my wife that I hope that we still have this in 40 more years.

Thank you so much for sharing!

Carmen’s response:  

Vincent…more power to you!!! Those years can pass so quickly, but no matter how much we mellow, with life’s daily schedule changing through the years and modifying the relationship, ALWAYS ALWAYS kiss each other. Makes the hard times easier to survive. I giggled about embarrassing the kids…I’ve spent my life embarrassing my kids on several fronts. But when she was 31, one of our daughters wrote a beautiful “Thank You” letter to us, listing all the little things. And one of those was a thank you for loving each other so much. So let it be written, so let it be done :-)

 Just a note of clarification…our marriage has not been a perfect, unspoiled bouquet of roses…sometimes more like Guns’n’Roses!!! Our backgrounds were quite different…Glen a farm boy, I a city girl…but we shared the important cornerstones: experiencing an intact, loving family and being reared in the Christian faith. We also both had bachelor’s degrees. Neither of us has self-esteem issues. Admittedly, the church part was a vastly different experience. Glen was born on a hillside & attended a little community church during his childhood—-then attended a Presbyterian high school/jr. college. I suffer from congenital Methodism, very active in organized religion. We learned from each other. And early on, his very frugal style conflicted with my spendthrift habits…some good memories of that, as I desperately needed someone to rein me in. Also some bad memories…no AC when we built our home (“I’m not going to pay for an air conditioner for 25 years, we’ll put one in later), no more than one vehicle (a pickup with no AC), no “allowance” for me just to play…you get my drift. Communication is the key. After our third baby was born, and I struggled through my third summer in that hot house, I gently told him I would lay down my life for him….but if he did not air-condition the house, I was leaving. Oh, OK :-) I repeat, COMMUNICATION IS THE KEY!!! And, once again, the healing power of Touch…kissing, hugging. Through the years we have continued to learn from each other…with much mellowing, of course. Our children would be horrified at the balance we carry on our credit card. The spendthrift sort of won out on that one. But despite mellowing, the passion is still there. Gotta love it when that happens.

From Bart:

Duana,

Some more comments:

“…I think current science points to most people requiring a spark in their kissing from the outset, but doubtless you’re correct that a few settle for lackluster kissing—and they shouldn’t. There are cultures where passion is neither encouraged nor required for a marriage to begin or sustain, but ours is not one of those…”

Is passion defined by a sexual passion or an emotional passion?

I think I (and perhaps my wife) may have settled for a somewhat “sparkless” kissing without consciously realizing it because there was a strong physical/sexual “passion” from both of us, but especially on the part of my wife to me. We also had been very close friends for several years prior to our courtship so there was a certain comfort/trust/caring level already established in the relationship prior to it becoming romantic. In hindsight we may have sort of “skipped over” the kissing aspect of the relationship because of this and the fact that we had (still do) so many other common interests. In a normal relationship progression you likely would have - initial meeting, friendship, initial physical attraction, caring, kissing/petting, sexual interaction.

In our relationship I believe it was a little out of order and went from friendship/caring to attraction/kissing/petting/sexual in one fell swoop!

And while there may have been little spark when we kissed, it doesn’t mean there weren’t any fireworks in the bedroom. (maybe it was a spontaneous combustion with little or no spark. LOL)

“I stand by the well-replicated finding that people who are not now happy revise their pasts as being gloomy….that therefore our memories that feel so real are often wrong….and that it’s far more common for people to incorrectly recall a passionless beginning, than it is for them to have *truly* had a dull start.

Just to clarify my feelings, I would not characterize my marital past as gloomy and I don’t believe my relationship had a passionless beginning or a dull start, at least from a physical/sexual aspect. However, I will concede that I am not completely happy now for a variety of reasons. The fireworks still happen in the bedroom, albeit less frequently than before, and I still love Meg and the person and mother she is but do wish for the emotional passion created by a kiss that Carmen writes so glowingly about.

Thanks for doing the research and for providing a forum for discussion.

Duana’s response: —What is passion?—

Hi, Bart, Scientists including Elaine Hatfield http://www.elainehatfield.com/ literally define passion as “an intense longing for union with another”, and it’s been shown to be a transient state that lasts up to a couple of years, with a few rare exceptions that last far beyond that.  From that standpoint, passion is an *emotional* state that creates a longing for emotional and sexual union. But naturally, we don’t tend to forever yearn for something we already have :).

Instead, most long-term couples love one another companionately—that is, warmly and genuinely but not at a constantly high level of intensity; they have moments of physical and/or emotional passion, coupled with an abiding emotional intimacy that feels comforting and validating rather than intense.

Research on couples who remain married for decades relates to your longing for greater emotional intimacy, but to my knowledge science hasn’t yet specifically studied how to create passion in kissing per se. Here’s what the Science Says: 

—Your background with your wife is a valid basis for optimism that you two can find the emotional intimacy you long for. You began as friends—a fantastic basis so often lacking in courtships that start from a sexual basis. Research shows that *the* most direct route to intimacy is building on that foundation and treating one another as cherished friends.  

—Most couples hit long dull stretches, and *all* couples in decades-long studies of marriages have problems they never solve. Not just one or two problems, either! Fully 69% of the issues in marriages are perpetual, never fully going away. This is true whether couples are happy or miserable. Perhaps dull kissing is one of your and Meg’s perpetual issues. There are happy couples who have large sexual issues…money issues, issues with child-rearing, etc. are all problems shared by happy and unhappy couples.

What are the happy couples doing differently?  http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/solving-your-unsolvable-problems-what-happy-couples-know.html

Please read the Love Science posting entitled “Dealing With Your Difficult Woman,” and buy the book linked at the end (also linked at the end of today’s article). Apply what you find there—or, as the article suggests, give a copy to your Relationship Mechanic—, and your perpetual troubles won’t go away…but they’ll lose their grip, and your relationship will be happier than you thought possible.

From Quinn:  —Re-prioritizing?—

I remember taking over a new region and acquiring a manager who was highly touted. After a month I quickly saw this manager to lack skillsets and strengths I deemed prerequisites to be successful. Even questioning, “How did they get this far without these qualities?” Then eventually I was able to witness the talent and abilities that allowed (clearly) this person to supersede their shortcomings.

Which brings me to my point. A sustained marriage of 17 yrs is an accomplishment in itself. Perhaps she overlooked her husband’s lack of passionate kisses because the other things were more important or enough to where it was not a priority. Me? A kiss without passion is courtesy. I must have that connection with the person of potential longevity.

But I will say that while I have had many passionate and weak-making kisses, I have never had a 17yr relationship with anyone. So perhaps my outlook on what is most important to ask for should be re-evaluated. :)

Duana’s response:

Hi, Quinn, 
I appreciate your management observation, and believe that you’d be correct in some circumstances; kissing’s importance could be overshadowed in some cases. For example, there are about 9-10% of world cultures that *don’t* kiss, and in some other cultures where dating is forbidden and marriages are arranged, we’d expect passion and/or passionate kissing to be a limited element of how a partner is chosen.

But we don’t have data yet to tell us for sure. You’d be amazed, really, by how little scientists currently know about kissing. The world’s best-selling human sexuality textbook references kissing exactly twice, and the studies they cite are so old, they were written in hieroglyphics, lol.

That said, we’ve got a handful of new studies on passionate kissing. And they’ve got me thinking that although it’s *possible* that one person in Bart’s marriage could have said yes to a blah emotional connection in kissing—it’s really unlikely they *both* approved that. In a time and place where the vast majority of people marry for love, where kissing is part of early courtship, and passionate kissing is a common litmus for establishing a bond—I think it much likelier Bart and Meg revised their pasts For Worse as their happiness and intimacy waned.

I would like to see a lot more research done on this act that, for most of us, is so basic and required. For instance—it’s known now that women who don’t like their husband’s scent are more likely to cheat. I would bet good money—if I were the betting sort—that the same can be said of partners who settle for lackluster liplock.

From GC:

True Love - Hard heavy kissing after a set of really good spicy chorizo and egg tacos loaded with garlic and plenty of salsa! And don’t forget the coffee.
True Marriage Love- Morning breath make-out session.
True Youthful Love - Public make-out session after a hard sweaty workout at the track.
I’m just being silly. Hopefully made ya smile or yack.
Kisses everyone. Muah!

And hugs to all of you.

Cheers,

Duana

Related LoveScience articles:

LoveScience focuses on John Gottman’s work on happy couples and how to become happier in your relationship at all the articles at this link: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/display/Search?moduleId=9130610&searchQuery=gottman

Especially recommended are these LoveScience articles about Gottman’s research:

Solving your unsolvable problems: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/solving-your-unsolvable-problems-what-happy-couples-know.html

Dealing with your difficult woman: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/dealing-with-your-difficult-woman-1.html

Dealing with your difficult man: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/dealing-with-your-difficult-man-1.html

The author wishes to thank the following scientists and sources:

John Gottman of the Gottman Institute, and his classic must-have, The 7 Principles For Making Marriage Work.  I still read it for my own marriage, and I bought yet another copy for newlyweds today. 

Elaine Hatfield, for her work on passionate and companionate love, including this handy Passionate Love Scale you can take.  

Diane Holmberg, for research into how our emotions today cause us to revise our memories of yesterday. 

Do you have a question for Duana? Write to her at Duana@lovesciencemedia.com for a confidential, personal response. 

All material copyrighted by Duana C. Welch, Ph.D., and LoveScience Media, 2012