Hello, Wise Readers! Tonight we’re fortunate to have Carrie Lynne Pietig 
joining us from Round Rock, Texas, where she is a Licensed Professional Counselor in private practice. Her practice is called Life In Motion Counseling, and she uses Gottman Method Couples Therapy techniques and interventions to help couples in the greater Austin area repair the friendship and love in their relationship.
Carrie Lynne has been in private practice for four years and has helped couples with a variety of problems to productively manage conflicts, appreciate relationship strengths and gently navigate vulnerabilities as well as couples beginning a relationship, improving a relationship and ending a relationship navigate the important questions with compassion, understanding and integrity. You can learn more about her and her work at www.LifeInMotionCounseling.com. [If you’d rather listen to the interview, please click this link.]
Welcome, Carrie Lynne, and thank you for being on LoveScience!
Carrie Lynne Pietig:
Thank you.
—What Is Gottman Method Counseling? And What Are The Eight Predictors Of Divorce?—
Duana Welch:
….First of all, a lot of people are asking me, what is Gottman Method counseling?
CLP:
Gottman Style or Gottman Method counseling started with John Gottman really back in 1970 looking at a variety of different methods out there, and he started doing research where he put 677 couples through seven different studies over 35 years to really watch them. And…really observe how they were communicating, within their relationship…and found out there were Masters and Disasters.
….He found that there were eight predictors of divorce:
….—more negativity than positivity,
…—escalation of negative affect or emotion,
—emotional disengagement and withdrawal,
—failure of repair attempts,
—negative sentiment override,
—maintaining vigilance and physiological arousal,
—chronic diffuse physiological arousal which I call flooding,
—and then failure of men to accept influence from their women.
These are big indicators of divorce. And he could predict [divorce] with about a 95% accuracy after observing a couple in conflict…Now it might have been a little bit down the road, it wasn’t necessarily [immediate divorce], but he really got very good at being able to understand how couples handled conflict and how it impacted the longevity of their marriage.
The other thing is that his technique, which I really really love, is designed to teach tools to couples to help them deepen their friendship and really enhance the intimacy within the relationship. And that’s really through productively managing conflicts and appreciation of relationship strengths, and gently navigating the [areas where there’s pain].
—Why Did Gottman Do All That Research? (Hint: The Other Therapies Weren’t Helping)—
DW:
Yeah, I’m just blown away by the ability to predict [divorce] with 95% or greater accuracy after, I think it was after just 15 minutes, maybe even five minutes, of discussion…What really interests me is why he decided to study these Master couples to begin with….Why wasn’t he just using the existing therapy techniques?
CLP:
…They weren’t working. They weren’t scientifically based, and he wanted something scientifically based that he could repeat…
DW:
Well we are all about science at LoveScience! That is why I am interviewing you!
So to get a little bit personal, what made you decide to do this type of counseling?
CLP:
I had first-hand experience to a counselor who exposed my husband and myself to it. And she opened the doors to just a little bit of understanding the Gottman counseling approach, and…I think I had just completed my master’s program and went into my practicum, and realized that I had a strong attraction to working with couples, which I was somewhat surprised by.
And so remembering this great experience that my husband and I had with going and seeking out the counseling, [I] wanted to find out more. And I didn’t realize that there was all this wonderful training out there; I found it and launched into it and have been an avid fan since.
DW:
You know, I’m so excited to meet you, because in the universe of counselors, the Gottman Method counselors are still numerically kind of rare. And so I was just delighted to find someone right here in the Austin area who provided that.
—Do You Have To Fix Your Problems To Be Happy? (Can You?)—
DW:
….A lot of folks, especially women, have written to me about these really tough issues. And they want to fix the problems. Especially women, they want to fix this problem, they want it to go away. But they think their marriage or relationship is doomed to fail because they can’t fix all their problems, or they worry that they can’t fix all their problems.
So I wondered, can couples have problems and be happy anyway?
CLP:
Absolutely. One of the things, when couples walk into my office, within the first 30 minutes of being in my office I try to get this point across to them that 70% of the problems that couples have are not solvable.
DW:
That is so high!
CLP:
I know! And they always think that it’s the reverse. And I’ll say, “Look, 70% of the problems that you guys are experiencing are unsolvable. You’re not going to somehow find a way to make them solvable. And 30% of them are solvable.” And they always want to say, “No, no, you’ve got it wrong,” and I say, “No, really, it’s 70%!” [laughs]
DW:
Now is that 70%…if there’s a miserable couple, or is that everyone?
CLP:
It’s everyone. And it’s really based on….fundamental differences between culture, upbringing, personality, needs, and how they see themselves. And those factors, when you’re talking about a variety of different issues, are going to [emerge as the cause]. They’re both right. They’re just on different sides….
DW:
You know what word came up more often in what you just said than any other word? Different.
CLP:
Yeah.
DW:
Differences…and really, people don’t have unsolvable problems about being too much the same very often, it’s usually differences. In fact, I think Gottman lists something like 25 sources of…problems, and they all started with the word ‘differences’. [laughs]
And I find that really interesting, because of course nobody mates with their clone.
CLP:
I think that would be boring. Life would be boring if we were with somebody who was very much like us! [laughs]
DW:
Or maybe it would be very calm but asexual.
CLP:
Oh, I wouldn’t want it! [both laughing]
—How Are Master Relationships Different From Disaster Relationships?—
CLP:
….Even though 70% of the problems are perpetual, or unsolvable,…really the neat thing about Gottman Method counseling is that it’s about changing how the conversation takes place.
So instead of the couple hitting a brick wall and bouncing off of it, or repeating the same pattern over and over and over again, it really helps a couple have a conversation about it, really reach an understanding of why that’s important to a person, enabling the listener to really hear what’s being said, as well as to really share an effective way that the listener can really hear, process, and understand and validate for them.
And so [although all relationships have unsolvable problems], Master relationships [are those where the partners are] supportive of their partner, effective in their communications. They’re going to handle those conversations where they do not agree much differently than a Disaster relationship where they’re just going to repeat a very negative pattern over and over again and get really frustrated; and then that causes other issues in the relationship,…[as] opposed to the Master relationship, where they can laugh it off, add a little humor…
DW:
Yeah, the Masters are compassionate with each other. They’re kind, and they’re humorous, and they don’t make problems worse than they are. They kind of defang them.
CLP:
They do. They’re very gentle, yeah.
And I don’t see as many Masters come into my room, I see more Disasters…
DW:
Of course!
CLP:
Which is what I’m most familiar with.
DW:
Sure, if memory serves, I think that one of the reasons Gottman started studying the Masters is [that] really therapists don’t know what happy couples are doing. Because really, you guys don’t see the happy couples, do you?
CLP:
No, not as often. I wish we did, because I think every relationship could really benefit from coming in and doing a tune-up. And just kind of keeping that pile of issues [that every couple has], that I frankly call Shit Pile [DW laughs], in the room. Because that’s what it is! I mean, people will pull from it and it’s huge and it’s stinky and it’s messy. And it just really needs to be kept to a minimum, maybe turning it into a compost pile would be nice [DW laughs]. And not have it be this big issue that couples have hanging over their relationship….lugging [it] around with them all the time.
—Does The Man Have To Go To Therapy? Why Do Men Resist Going To Therapy? And How Is Gottman Method Therapy A Good Experience For Him?—
DW:
….[Women also tell me that] “I’m sorry, my relationship just can’t survive, and it’s because my man will not go to therapy with me.”
And Gottman’s and others’ research has shown that it’s possible for a relationship to improve and get much happier even if men don’t go. But I’m kind of wondering, why do you think men resist counseling?
CLP:
I think counseling has gotten a bad rap. I think couples counseling, especially. And I think men feel that they are not going to get heard, and it’s going to be all about the woman, and it’s going to be about them changing to meet her needs. And I don’t think that that’s accurate, but I think that’s a perception that’s out there about how couples counseling works.
DW:
So all these years I’ve been thinking that counseling was about ganging up on the guy and making him do my will, and I was wrong about that?!
CLP:
Yes. [both laughing]
DW:
That’s a relief to know. Men, I hope you’re listening, it’s not about ganging up on you.
CLP:
No.
DW:
Do you think that Gottman style therapy has something to offer men, as well as women, that maybe the other kinds of therapy don’t?
CLP:
I think it does. It’s a scientifically based model, and so I think it really helps couples create positive emotion around perpetual issues.
So when they’re having conversations about those unsolvable problems, and they’re kind of going in that same rut over and over, they can actually have some positivity and positive emotions that result if they change the way that they’re approaching that conversation.
DW:
So they can live with that problem, and truly they can be happy anyway. The man’s perspective is going to be given just as much attention—
CLP:
Equal validity. Yes. And men and women have different ways that they communicate. Often I find that men take a lot of care in choosing the right words, and they have a very deep sense about what they’re talking about.
I’m not saying women don’t have a deep sense too, but often women have so much more words that go with explaining something, that the men kind of tune out. And so…helping each of them understand what the other is saying and what the real intent behind it is can really change that conversation….
And so one of the things I really find is that when couples finally get to a place where they’re willing to listen to one another, then there’s a tremendous amount of understanding and acceptance that can result. And the healing that couples can experience, and how quickly they can just change the way the relationship is going, is amazing to watch. It is just phenomenal.
—What Are The Four Horsemen Of A Relationship’s Apocalypse?—
CLP:
The one thing that I want to bring up that is very important with respect to how Gottman can help men as well as women, that I think other therapies don’t have, is the Four Horsemen. I mean it’s just…the foundation of a lot of what’s happening within the counseling room.
And so you’re talking about changing the Four Horsemen [of a relationship’s Apocalypse]….
DW:
Can you tell us briefly, what does that mean—the Four Horsemen?
CLP:
….The first one is Criticism. And so the antidote to that, the opposite, is to complain without blaming…. [DW’s note: Wise Readers, here’s an article about that: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/dealing-with-your-difficult-man.html ]
Defensiveness is next. And the antidote to that is taking responsibility. And so instead of pushing the problem away, it’s saying, “Yeah, I may have a part in that.”
And just having a couple accept that, “You know what? My partner actually may be understanding that they have a part in that” can really lower the temperature in the room and really open the conversation up.
The [third Horseman] is Contempt. And this one is really serious…So if this is happening, if contempt is present, that’s a pretty big factor in predicting divorce…
DW:
…I think we all know what, kind of what criticism is—that would be the ugly ‘you’ statements, like “You don’t pay attention to me anymore.” Defensiveness would be, “Oh yeah! I do too!” and not acknowledging any part of [the criticism]. But what would contempt look like?
CLP:
Thinking you’re better than the other person.
DW:
How does that look, and when you see couples who are contemptuous, what do they do?
CLP:
“You should have done it this way, because this is how the right way is. I don’t understand why you can’t possibly figure this out. I don’t know why you don’t see this problem….” It’s just that tone and that perception that their partner is not as smart or capable, and that they’re better. And it’s really dangerous.
DW:
Is this the eye-rolling thing?
CLP:
Yes, absolutely. And there’s a whole lot of body language that can go with contempt—from just not looking at your partner, to turning away; the eye rolling, the flicking of tongues….there’s a lot of hand gestures that go [with contempt]….
DW:
I may have seen some of those hand gestures, on the freeway maybe.
CLP:
You might have! [both laugh] Although that would be very, very obvious. Normally, they’re a little more subtle, where you know, they’re just dismissing the person who’s talking. Contempt is [saying], “What you’re saying is not important. What I say is more important.”
DW:
Mmhm. All the verbal and nonverbal signs [that show the partner] “I’m important and you’re really just not fully human or not fully important to me.”
CLP:
Yeah, the “I know better”. And….really, the antidote to that is building that culture of appreciation. So really, taking that contempt down and saying, “So really, what does your partner bring to the table? How are they really partnering your life? How are they making your life better? How can you appreciate that they’re there. How can you begin to change that conversation from, ‘Oh man, they just don’t know what they’re doing, they don’t know how to do it,’ to ‘They do.’?”
And “There is value that they bring to the relationship; I do appreciate them; I do see that they can support me.” And that’s a long process. Especially if there’s a high level of contempt.
I have to say that [there are] very few couples that come into my office that I don’t see contempt on….
DW:
And yet, in 1970s ‘can this marriage be saved’ terms, it can be.
CLP:
Yeah.
DW:
I mean, you know Gottman says you start out with criticism and it tends to spiral into this cascade of defensiveness, contempt, and [the fourth Horseman] stonewalling. But that you can arrest [the downhill slide].
CLP:
Mmhmm.
DW:
And sometimes, you can arrest it even very late in the process, like stonewalling. So I think you were going to tell us a little about stonewalling.
CLP:
Yeah, so stonewalling….what I really try to [convey to the couples] is that when you’re physically responding to the situation, and you’re just maybe overwhelmed by it, to the point where you just shut down, [that’s how some people experience the feeling that they are stonewalling]. And some people, the minute the conversation starts, they just shut down; so they’re in essence a stone wall, everything’s bouncing off them…they’re just not engaging with their partner. So it just feels very one-sided.
DW:
It’s interesting, because there can be female stonewallers, but most of them are male, is that correct?
CLP:
Yeah, I say that in that way because I’ve seen it on both sides.
DW:
Sure, I’m a recovered female stonewaller, but I think Gottman was saying that it’s mostly men who do it…
CLP:
Yes, but I don’t necessarily see that happening in my room.
DW:
Really? Because the reason I was pointing that out is…I was going back to an earlier point you made where you said men would be more economical with their words…
CLP:
Which makes sense.
DW:
They had a very deep emotional life and were somewhat hesitant to show it maybe? And…
CLP:
I think they often get shut down from having the conversation.
DW:
Yeah, and so it’s not just a willful emotional shutdown, it’s a physiological event…
CLP:
Yeah….
DW:
It’s a physiological event. In fact, I think Gottman identifies it by number of heart beats per minute—100 and you’re stonewalling.
CLP:
….I would say [it’s happening] when you start to feel the response to the conversation. So it could be anything from an increased heartbeat to feeling like you’re flushed, like you’re starting to sweat, like you just want to run out of the room. Those things are very very very important to be paying attention to because they’re indicating that the couple needs a break.
DW:
Yeah, that’s biofeedback.
CLP:
Yeah…the conversation needs to stop and take a pause. Which is very hard for couples to do.
DW:
Sure. Do you help them to have a safe word or a phrase, or a…
CLP:
It depends on the couples. Some people want a word or a symbol, like they can do an action like a time-out…it just really depends on what works for the couple, ‘cuz there’s like a hundred different ways that they can take the signal to take a break. But it really depends on them, and we work on what will work for them. We talk about what works, so…
DW:
And again…according to Gottman, stonewalling is—if that doesn’t get fixed, the relationship is not going to survive. People are going to become too lonely, they’re going to drift apart. If they’re having an affair, it’s usually a symptom of the detachment, not a cause of the detachment at that phase. And so it’s really, really important to cease this and reverse this process. And so, you have couples who come to you, and they’re at the stonewalling phase already, and you’re able to help them?
CLP:
Yeah, and Gottman refers to that as emotional disengagement, where as a result of the couple bouncing off one another, either for a perpetual problem that’s not getting solved….they eventually just stop having the conversation. Which isn’t stonewalling. But they…in essence start coexisting. And then…they become lonely. And that loneliness can lead to just saying “I’m going to disconnect.” And I think part of it’s a safety measure to protect yourself.
But to your point, it is very dangerous, ‘cuz when [loneliness is there] that’s when you do see people starting to look outside their relationship to get their needs met, whether that’s an affair…whatever that is, it’s pulling energy away from the couple and the ability to really have those conversations that develop and keep that friendship and love alive, and that intimacy….and helping that relationship to be fed and supported and grow.
….Contempt and Stonewalling are by far the most dangerous.
—Has A Man Ever Told You He’s Glad He Went To Therapy?—
DW:
This is great…Can you tell me about a time a man told you or showed you he was glad he went to therapy?
CLP:
I can. I have to be careful to keep confidentiality, so some of it’ll be vague, but it’ll be vague on purpose.
I had a couple that came to see me, and I saw them for a fairly extensive period of time. And they had been to couples counseling before, and I even talked with the counselor that they had seen before, and gotten the history. And certainly there were a lot of issues that they’d been dealing with.
But they were dealing with being a blended family, parenting issues, and they had significantly different approaches about how they wanted to handle parenting.
DW:
And that’s really a pretty common issue.
CLP:
It is….And I would really love to work with couples as they are considering being or moving into a blended family….to understand how to bring the families together, ….because it would save so much angst after the fact.
DW:
Certainly.
CLP:
But to get back on track, [the husband] shared—towards the conclusion of our time together—how much the Gottman Method had really helped him, because he was able to finally say what he needed to say, share things inside of him—share his fears, his concerns—and as a result, he got to share kind of how scared he was of being a parent, and the fear of being rejected, and not knowing how to set limits and not knowing how to do the boundaries and not knowing how to follow through. Because the conversation [before] had been where he was really getting a lot of criticism, and a lot of nagging…and they were just surviving.
And so finally, they started having these conversations. And what was really powerful for me was that they were actually talking about the same thing, but they didn’t know it. And I remember the one time that they kind of said, “Well wait a minute.” The wife said, “I didn’t know you actually wanted to set boundaries,” and the husband was like, “Well yeah, but I just didn’t know how. And you wanted it this way, and I just didn’t know how to have a conversation with you.” And so we had to keep peeling it back and peeling it back and it took a while, and it was a little bit of a slow process to get through, but they hung in there.
And he told me how much he appreciated being able to talk with his wife and be part of the process in the [counseling] room, because when they’d gone to counseling before, he’d felt like he’d just been a fixture and not important, and he was just ignored. And he said, “I really feel like I’m equal in here, and my voice and my opinion and my thoughts and my feelings are important.” And that as a result, he really started making some changes.
And so their parenting approach really got a bit more on the same page. Now did they actually go apply it? Well, that’s a story for another time.
DW:
[laughs] But it was a move in the right direction, it sounds like.
CLP:
It was a wonderful reconnection for them to understand that they were a) talking about the same thing, and b) that he finally felt heard. And I saw him really blossom in the room and come out and really be—instead of just sitting there and taking it—he actually started saying, “No, look, I’m not going to get treated this way.” And she started having to back down and change how she was having the conversation and it was really amazing.
— What About Therapy As Maintenance?—
DW:
And I’m sure that some of these couples…they must have been together a very long time and a few sessions, it’s going to be really tough to break out of those old patterns that aren’t effective, but they’re comfortable in the sense that they know these well-worn paths…so I can definitely see the value of couples who come see you periodically.
Do you have some that do that?
CLP:
Mmhmm. I do.
DW:
They kind of have refresher courses?
CLP:
Yep.
DW:
That’s great.
CLP:
Yeah, and even the Gottman Method talks about…bringing couples back in on kind of a maintenance schedule to keep the shit pile down, and to keep the relationship fresh and clean and kind of get any cobwebs out that need to be aired.
DW:
Mmhmm, you know, in the gardening world, we would say that you’re turning your compost pile…
CLP:
There you go! They’re turning it!… [both laugh]
—How Can You Tell The Difference Between A Problem You Can Fix And One You Can’t?—
DW:
I’d like to talk more about problems…I’d like to start by talking about the ones that can be fixed, because some problems really can be fixed. How can a couple tell the difference between a fixable problem and one of these that’s just going to hang around like a bad back or an arthritic knee forever?
CLP:
Sure. A perpetual problem—you’re going to know it. It’s been around for years. Just like that arthritic knee and that bad back, it’s just going to be nagging at you, and it’s just going to hang out, and it’s perpetual. And as we talked about earlier, the perpetual problems, they are really so much about the fundamental differences—[differences from] the culture, upbringing, personality, needs, how you see yourself.
So when I work with couples, it’s really not necessarily about solving that particular problem, but finding a different way to have a conversation about it….moving around it instead of just getting stuck by it.
And then fixable problems, those are where they’re really going to be able to have a dialogue, they’re going to be able to understand, validate one another, and then you can move through it. So there will be some compromise, most likely, that needs to take place, sometimes. And sometimes, it’s totally fixable once we get past all the emotion, some of the Four Horsemen—the criticism, [the defensiveness], the contempt, the stonewalling—so….once we’ve set that aside, we get really good, clear, concise, understood, validated; people are feeling more connected, more friendship, more love between them. It opens up a lot of avenues, and it’s [much easier to fix problems] that can be fixed.
DW:
Can you give me an example of a specific fixable problem that a couple or several couples have brought to you? Again, without breaking anyone’s confidentiality.
CLP:
Yeah, right, right…the couple I was telling you about…they had a fixable problem around the parenting style. So once we replaced the Four Horsemen with the antidotes, added in some humor, they were really able to get an understanding and appreciation for what their positions were. And they moved out of being completely deadlocked, which they were—we took lots of breaks—…and one of the things I found that was most helpful was I think they felt there was a safe place in the room to have the conversation. So I would say that there are so many problems where couples have exhibited so much bravery in tackling with their partner and…it’s really that they’re changing the way they have the conversation.
DW:
Sometimes the communication itself is the issue, and that is completely solvable.
CLP:
Yeah. Most cases, it’s completely solvable, if people are willing. There has to be that desire to be willing to do it….
—Can This Therapy Help Even If You’re Not Sure Your Relationship Will Work?—
DW:
As I read over your bio, I noticed that you don’t just help the couples who are still in relationship; you help couples who are ending a relationship. I find that a fascinating area of counseling. I really hadn’t even thought about it very much.
Do you have a lot of clients who are ending relationships—who come to you knowing that they’re ending it, and they have some kind of motivation for ending it well?
CLP:
Yes, I’ve had that [but rarely]….. I think I had one where they’d actually done enough work and they came in saying, “We’re just not a match, we’ve [come here to figure out how to end it].”
Most couples come in with the hope that the relationship will work, and hoping that we can do that together as a team. But through the conversations, through the process, through the work together, they realize that they’re not able to do that, and then we start talking about how do you make that split happen? And how do you do it in a way that honors your partner, that honors yourself, that keeps you healthy, that sets you up to be—if you choose to be in a relationship again—that sets you up to be able to find a healthy relationship by not having so many scars and wounds from the current relationship…that they’re exiting.
—How Long ‘Should’ Couples Go To Therapy?—
CLP:
Gottman indicates that most couples will enter therapy six years after they’ve been having problems.
DW:
That’s really, really tough…that’s a lot of pain…
CLP:
And that means there’s a lot of time to invest and get to have that negative pattern of communication repeated over and over again. It’s really hard to break. So the recommendation is, for every year of marriage, there’s one month of counseling.
So I think if…couples are really working hard and getting into it and really doing the work outside of session, coming back in, and learning new tools and techniques and practicing them, that they could actually do that. I would say most couples [would probably need over a month].
DW:
That’s interesting. You know, I had never heard that ‘one month of counseling per one year of marriage’. Is that something that Gottman found was helpful?
CLP:
I don’t know if it’s Gottman or through the training…
DW:
I would love to know a source on that because I’m a source nerd, but I take comfort in numbers. I think that’s a really interesting rule of thumb.
—My Husband Criticizes Me In Front Of The Kids; Is This Problem Solvable?—
DW:
I got a letter from one of the LoveScience readers [who wanted me to pose her question to you, without her name]:
“I’d say, first off, that my husband and I have a good marriage. When I occasionally (rarely) roll my eyes, he immediately clamps down, saying that based on Gottman’s research it’s a sign of disrespect for your partner. But in our real life, most often with or about our children, if I somehow don’t do something “correct,” or if something happens, he immediately jumps to tell me how I should have done something. And he does this in front of the kids. Even if it is bedtime, and we (I) am trying to keep things mellow for the kids. It isn’t a full-blown argument, mind you. Mainly it is that I object to the wording of his dissatisfaction, his timing, and the energy level - all in front of the kids. It’s funny - we had reached the point in our relationship that we rarely had disagreements…until we had kids. I feel like I am always corrected rather than being “assisted.” Is this unsolvable?”
CLP:
My first instinct to that, without having the couple in front of me where I can work with them directly, is that I definitely think that’s solvable. It does not sound like it’s an unsolvable problem. It sounds like there’s kind of a perpetual pattern about how this conversation’s taking place. And I think that there’s tremendous meaning behind both the wife and the husband about why this conversation is taking place—about why he is criticizing her. I think there is a lot behind that, and he may not understand what it’s doing to her and [he’s needing] to hear [her side] that “I don’t like the language; I don’t like how you’re saying this to me; and I certainly don’t like the timing.”
And there may be a very deep and rich conversation they can have about why he’s bringing that up, when he’s bringing it up, and what that means for him.
And there’re some neat interventions Gottman has around dealing with issues where he talks about The Dream Behind The Conflict. And it’s actually called ‘Dreams Within Conflict’. But they go through, and a couple will talk about, what in their past triggers something and why it’s important to them, and how they feel about it. And their partner is listening and just understanding, so they can be more aware of why this is important for the partner, and vice-versa.
[In your LoveScience reader’s example], he would need to hear from her why is this hard for her to have this conversation, why does she not like having it in front of the kids, what does this mean to her? Does she potentially feel like it takes away some of her parental authority, and why would he do that? When in fact he may not be trying to do that.
DW:
She may feel disrespected and he may not intend it that way. It may be that in the moment, he’s—or maybe even, she’s noticing it more in the situation in front of the children….It’s hard to know if you don’t know them, I guess.
CLP:
Exactly. And so it would be wonderful to have a conversation with them about that, to help them be able to have a conversation with one another about that. Because that’s really my role; it’s not to have the conversation for them, it’s to help them have a conversation between themselves and learn how to do that so that they can repeat it in their own private lives over and over again and change that pattern.
So my first instinct on that is that is definitely solvable. And it’s not far off from other issues that I’ve had in my counseling room.
DW:
Yeah, I imagine she’ll be very relieved to hear that. I know I am, because that’s a really common issue. So, to hear that something like that is solvable—or, you know, some people really do have such different parenting styles…
A really common [issue] that I see from people who write to me is that the husband believes in a far more authoritarian parenting style than the wife does; that she is more lenient, more permissive, more likely to hug,
CLP:
More nurturing.
DW:
More nurturing, and that he feels like that’s going to make the kids too soft; the kids aren’t going to be prepared for the real world,
CLP:
So we’ve got to toughen them up.
DW:
“We’ve got to toughen them up, you’re not being realistic, Mom,” and so some of those maybe aren’t as solvable in the sense that they will both have a Dream about how their children will turn out, that is tied to this perspective.
CLP:
Exactly.
DW:
But once they can acknowledge the Dream that lives within their spouse and say, “You’re not a monster, we both want the same thing; we want our children to do well in the world, we want our children to feel loved.” Then that kind of takes some of the pain out of the issue for them?
CLP:
Well, I don’t know about ‘takes the pain out of the issue,’ maybe, maybe not. But I think it changes the course of the conversation, so there’s a better understanding of why it’s happening, and how they want to change it so it [the conversation] can happen different.
—Why Is This Therapy Helpful Even If Your Relationship Is Ending?—
CLP:
….We talked about helping couples exit the relationship. And one [very important thing I want to discuss is] when couples come in, [not being sure of whether they’re staying together]: “Well, we’re not so sure we’re going to stay together, but we’re going to try to figure out if this is going to work.”
….Whatever skills they get [from counseling], they’re transferable to the relationship that they’re in, or whatever relationship they move into later.
DW:
Bravo!
CLP:
Because if you make the investment now, it’s going to pay off for the rest of your life. And it’s going to pay off not only in your love relationship, in your friendships, as a parent, and whatever family relationships are existing in your life.
And so I think, really spending the time to learn those [Gottman Method] communication techniques—validate, understand, be compassionate…—it’s valuable….So I think that investment is worth it, [regardless of relationship status]. Obviously, it’s a different conversation with a couple coming in that’s more of a Master or…healthier than somebody more of a Disaster or potentially thinking they’re going to end the relationship. But it’s something that I try to leave in; look, regardless, this is important, because this is going to help you no matter where you’re at within your relationship.
…And that gets me more buy-in a lot of times, because I think for a more analytical brain, where more often the men are functioning, it’s like, “Oh, okay, I can learn this, it will help….it’ll help alleviate some of the pain. Because if I do do this investment, it’s going to change the conversation and then we’ll be able to change the cycle of the relationship.” He’ll become more engaged, less lonely, more connected, more intimate.
—What About Sex? When He Wants It More, Is That Solvable?—
CLP:
Sex is a huge issue I often hear from couples: “How can I get more of that intimacy because that’s what I crave, from my wife? And that’s what makes me feel connected and close to her, but she doesn’t want to be intimate with me, because she’s more like the oven and she has to heat up over time. And when one of these disagreements is taking place, her oven is staying cold.” And the men need this connection to be able to feel close. And so it’s kind of a vicious cycle…
DW:
Sure is. I would love to hear whether you think that problem is solvable…
CLP:
I think it’s nearly always solvable.
DW:
Oh, because I get a lot of letters about that. So, just to recap, Wise Readers, because a lot of you are writing to me about this, it is very common in a long-term relationship between a man and a woman for the man to want more sexual connection than he’s getting, and the woman to feel that there’s not enough emotional connection for her to want to have sex very often.
So I want to hear some more about this solvable problem. Please do go on!
CLP:
Well, it’s very rare that [sex/desire] doesn’t come up as a conversation topic for couples. So I think the first and foremost, couples are embarrassed to talk about it, often. So first we have to get over that.
DW:
This isn’t a first-session conversation?
CLP:
It can be! I don’t mind having it as a first-session conversation, because there’s very little that embarrasses me, but I think couples postpone it. I think sex and finances are often kind of taboo topics….
Yeah, men want [sex] more, in most cases….It’s really just having a conversation about what do you want? What do you need? Why is that important to you? How does that make you feel? And when you are close with your partner, what do you get out of that?
And all of a sudden, you can see lightbulbs going off as the partner understands, “Oh my gosh, my man needs me to do this because this is how he feels loved, and he feels connected and important to me, and he feels he can help me solve my problems, and conquer, and take care of me,” because that’s a very strong desire that men have.
As well as from a woman’s perspective, “I feel taken care of, and nourished, and loved—and those are not necessarily those things that are taking place inside the bedroom.” And I think men are finally getting an understanding of, “Look, it is these caresses, it is these conversations… even if it’s just listening to her saying something for the 15th time, that’s still important, that she needs to feel that understanding from me so that she feels understood and emotionally connected to me, and then ultimately I can have that [sexual time in the bedroom] with her where we are being intimate and feeling connected.”
DW:
Yeah, because for women, foreplay is the 23 and a half hours before and after sex; it’s all of life! It’s been said that men need to have sex to feel loved, and women need to be loved to have sex.
CLP:
I can see that!
DW:
Yeah. I read, with great interest, John Gottman’s book And Baby Makes Three…you’d love it! Because in The 7 Principles For Making Marriage Work, —that’s his blockbuster and I keep it on my nightstand and hand copies out like candy and show it to all my students…—that book doesn’t talk about sex very much. And Baby Makes Three talks about it quite a bit.
And one of the things Gottman says in that book is that the Masters—the happy couples? They use masturbation as a matter of course. They understand, “Hey, my wife not wanting it as much as I do, maybe even for years, is not a personal thing, and what I really want when I’m with my wife is a full emotional satisfaction. Not just scratching an itch. And I can scratch the itch in between times so that I’m not putting a lot of pressure on her and creating this vicious cycle.”
And the wives will participate, maybe they’ll help?
CLP:
Provide visual, provide…whatever it takes.
DW:
Yeah! They may lend a hand, so to speak.
CLP:
Yep. Exactly.
DW:
They may just undress slowly. But they’re mutually supporting each other’s needs. And that is what the Master couples are doing. What I find really interesting is, in many ways, the sexual issue is not solvable for a lot of couples, from the standpoint that they’re always going to have a different level of desire.
CLP:
…I definitely agree with you, it’s not changing the desire, and that certainly is unsolvable—that’s just innate, it’s who they are as people. But it’s really understanding how to create a circumstance where their needs are getting met when they can get met, and to your point, what they can do in the meantime.
DW:
Yeah! They find ways. “Hey, maybe I’m not as horny as you are, dear, but why don’t you watch while I get undressed?”
CLP:
Right, and for the person who doesn’t have that high sexual drive, because it’s not always necessarily one-sided on the men’s side, is that I do really talk with them and really encourage the discussion about how do you increase that desire. What is blocking that? What is getting in the way?
Because sometimes it’s, “Well, when he comes home, then he starts doing this,” or “She comes home and starts doing this,” “and I just get turned off.” So then how do we change that the turn-off is happening?
And so it turns to neutral or turn-on, so that it’s not keeping things from getting heated up. And it’s unique to every couple. I mean, I certainly see that there’re some patterns, but every couple really has some nuances about their relationship that are different from every other couple. So really, getting them to have that open, honest, sometimes embarrassing conversation—really, that unlocks so many doors for them.
DW:
Sure, and especially if it’s something that—it’s not personal, but people are taking it personally. Like the new dad; I really wish people would think about coming to you [or therapy] when they’re thinking of becoming parents, like you mentioned earlier. Not just stepparents, but parents at all. The new dad…feels rejected when it’s really not at all about him; she’s just exhausted.
CLP:
And they don’t understand.
DW:
Yeah, or the couple where one of them has had a surgery. Vic and I went through this a year and a half ago—I had open heart surgery, and I’m not saying he was demanding on that issue, he wasn’t. But I could certainly see when somebody has a chronic illness, or a surgery or something….it would be easy sometimes for there to be a misunderstanding around [sexuality].
CLP:
…And another big thing I see is how they handle stress. So a lot of times, stress kills desire, and especially with the economic times being as they are right now, and financial pressures being higher in a lot of relationships, you know, that stress is a little killer for that desire for both people within the relationship.
DW:
It is! You know, that’s why vacation sex is so awesome! Yeah, you’re not stressed out all the time! Some of this [drop in desire or sexual mismatch] is situational.
CLP:
…Yeah, and when you’re not stressed out, you’re more relaxed, your startup in conversations is softer, your approach [to discussing areas of conflict] is gentler, you’re more receptive and you know, it just changes everything about how you’re interacting.
DW:
Well, I didn’t think we were going to talk about sex today. Yipee!
CLP:
I’m glad we did! It’s a huge thing for couples.
—What Common Communication Mistakes Are Women Making? Men? And What Should We Do Instead?—
DW:
….Gottman spent about 40 years now, at this point, following the progress of couples who are happy—those are the Masters—and those who are unhappy…the Disasters you referred to. And he noted that men and women tend to make different communication mistakes. And you’ve alluded to it a little bit. I wanted to ask some more about it. Specifically, I wondered if you could tell us more about what are women’s most common communication mistakes, and does Gottman have…advice for how women can work on that a little bit?
CLP:
Mmhmm. Sure. The most frequent thing that women do, is they will start up a conversation harshly….It’s like trying to wake up your child by coming in there with a big drum and pounding on it, and they get startled awake. So I think women will sometimes jump into conversations very roughly, very quickly. And what happens is, a man will…pull back and move into a defensive posture and withdraw…”What the heck just happened here?!”
So of course the antidote to that or the solution is to soften the startup. And what that really looks like for an example is, if a woman is feeling like she’s not getting enough attention at a party, a bad way or a harsh way of starting a conversation would be, “It makes me mad when you don’t pay attention to me at parties.” And a way she could soften that is, “I get lonely or I get insecure when you don’t pay attention to me at parties,” which I think really allows for a conversation to take place, as opposed to being a tennis game of kind of lobbing the ball back and forth: “Well, no you don’t,” or, “No, I didn’t do that.” [Starting] more softly can open up an avenue for your partner to have a conversation with you about it, to say, “Well…what can I do to help?” or “How do we need to change this so it works better for you,” and not feel so defensive.
DW:
Yeah, because here’s the thing about men who are in love: They want to help. They really do. They want to help. They just need to not feel attacked first.
CLP:
They do. Yeah! I think most people need to not feel attacked. I’ve seen it on both sides of the fence. And I think men, what they [think is], “I can do it all alone, so I don’t need to accept influence from my partner.” And so, “I have it figured out, I’m not gonna stop for directions, I’m just gonna do it.” [DW laughs]
CLP:
And so [men need to understand that] their partner does have the ability to have good influence or good opinions or good things for them to consider. And that the men should be willing to accept that—not always, but be at least willing to have a conversation where they can accept that influence and that help.
DW:
…I’m thinking of an example, and it’s a personal example. Something I really love about my husband is, before he makes a plan to do something that involves me, he asks me if it’s cool. He just does. And I’ve never asked him to ask me. I’ve never mentioned that. But to me, it’s a core way of saying, “Your opinion matters.” And….to me, it bespeaks a lot of respect: “I’m thinking of you, I’m checking in with you, your opinion matters to me, I’m always thinking about this relationship.”
And it just strikes me as being so respectful and again, because it’s not an asked-for perk.
CLP:
Yeah. That does sound like a wonderful example.
DW:
Yeah, and so that strikes me as so different than what I’ve [gotten in] letters…where a woman says, “My husband doesn’t clear anything with me first. He simply takes action. He buys the big appliance, or he spends a lot of money on himself or even on me, when budgets are tight and I maybe needed the money for something else…even if it was intended to be something nice, I really wish he had checked in.” And I do hear some of that from the Wise Readers at LoveScience, and feel that maybe that’s mapping on to what you’re talking about. That maybe these husbands or mates could stand to take stock a little bit and accept the influence of their partner or seek out the influence of their partner to begin with.
CLP:
Yeah. I think you do have very Wise Readers.
DW:
I do! I really love them! You know, LoveScience is coming up on four years,
CLP:
Oh my gosh, congratulations, Duana!
DW:
Thank you very much. And I’ve really enjoyed getting to know these readers. I’m sure you have some experiences like this where you feel so honored that your clients allow you to participate in their lives.
CLP:
I do. I feel very humbled. And what’s awesome as a couple therapist is that I take that back to my relationship and realize what an amazing husband I have. And sometimes I forget! [laughs] And so it’s good to be reminded that, “Wow, look at this man that I am married to!”
—Does Gottman Method Therapy Work In Abusive Relationships?—
DW:
You know, I hate to be a bummer here, but….unfortunately, some of the people I know that work the hardest on their relationships—some of the letters that I’ve gotten, where women want to work the hardest—[are from] women who are married to sociopaths, women who are married to men who are abusive, and often, to men who enjoy being abusive.
And the women will have read these articles that I’ve written before about Gottman, and they say, “Why isn’t this working for me?”
…I’ve done some reading in this area, but I wondered if you had something to contribute to that question of theirs?
CLP:
Well, you and I have talked about this, and no matter how hard you try, [the abused partner] is not going to be able to change the course for a batterer…Gottman has encountered that in some of his research. And really it’s about the safety [of the battered partner]. And so really, with respects to my work? I wouldn’t see a couple in that situation and it certainly wouldn’t be helpful…Where I see mild verbal and emotional abuse, those are things we certainly can attempt to work through. And sometimes we’re successful and sometimes we’re not, but I know you know more research on this issue than I.
DW:
Well I guess I just wanted to corroborate with you the larger point from Neil Jacobson… and John Gottman’s collaborative research where they interviewed men who were battering their wives, over years. And they found that it didn’t matter what the woman did—in fact, they found that the women in these battering relationships often did everything right, from the Master couple perspective. They were doing it right, and it didn’t matter. And [the researchers] wound up saying, “Look, ladies, this is completely not your fault. The batterer batters for his own reasons having nothing whatever to do with your behavior.”
And so I just wanted to…get that out there for anyone who’s listening who’s thinking, well maybe if I do this, that it will work. And you know, for most people, it does—most of us, thankfully, are in a more humane situation than that, with someone who really does love and wants to learn a better way of loving.
CLP:
Right. And I remember watching training videos of the men you’re talking about, and watching them answer questions, and they seemed very nice and amiable…
DW:
You’re talking about men who are batterers? They’re nice and amiable in the videos?
CLP:
Mmhmm. Yep. And the cameras, they [the husband and wife] were in separate rooms, and…you were watching the response of the wife to what the husband was saying, and you could see kind of an escalated response…. ‘Cuz she knew what was coming, and the patterns, and what that meant. There was a lot of subtext and hidden meaning and control…but [as] an observer, not knowing that person, not having had that experience, it was hard to [detect] some of [the escalation points]….
There was a big concern about safety that [the researchers] called out, that when women do try to leave, there is a very large concern for their safety and they have to be very careful as they develop the plan.
DW:
That’s right. That’s why we can’t tell them when to leave. Most women do leave, but you and I are not to tell them when, because we don’t know when it’s safe, and they need to make the plan. In fact, I’m going to link those articles that I’ve written about leaving an abuser and what the different kinds of abusers are, at the end of this conversation today. So that if there is anybody listening to this, and wondering what kind of relationship they’re in…and how to make [an exit] plan if it’s unsafe, then they’ll have that resource.
—Any Last Questions?—
DW:
Was there any question I should have asked that you wanted to answer and I just didn’t ask it?
CLP:
Mmmm, let me see. [both laugh] No, I think we covered it…..
DW:
I kind of just put out a note to a couple different web groups today [announcing this interview and asking for questions], and I’m pretty sure this person is kidding, but here is the final question of the evening:
“Whenever you say, ‘Hmmm, interesting,’ you’re really just daydreaming about lunch, aren’t you?”
CLP:
[both laugh] No, I’m not just daydreaming about lunch. Not ever am I daydreaming about lunch when I’m in the room with couples! I love the work with couples, but it certainly keeps me on my toes.
So normally, when I’m saying ‘Hmmm,’ or doing something along those lines, I’m thinking through probably a flood of about 20 ideas…about where I want to take this couple next, and trying to figure out which one I want to go and lead with first, and how to explain to them in a way we’ll be able to utilize most effectively….
DW:
Sure, well Carrie Lynne, it has been a tremendous pleasure interviewing you. Thank you for your generosity and kindness in speaking to me and to all the Wise Readers at LoveScience today.
And Wise Readers, you can contact Carrie Lynne Pietig at www.LifeInMotionCounseling.com. And there’s other contact information there for you as well. So thank you, and everybody take care!
Cheers,
Duana
PS: Wise Readers, do you have more questions for Carrie Lynne? Comment below and she’ll answer!
The author wishes to thank Carrie Lynne Pietig, with whom this interview was conducted on Nov. 8th, 2012,
and, as ever, researchers foundational to Gottman Method Therapy and adjustment to parenthood, and/or dealing with abusive mates: John Gottman, Julie Schwartz Gottman, and Neil Jacobson.
Related LoveScience articles:
Women and criticizing and soft startup: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/dealing-with-your-difficult-man.html
Men and stonewalling and accepting your partner’s influence: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/dealing-with-your-difficult-woman.html
New baby in the house/adjustment to parenthood: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/babies-marriage-the-real-impact-and-what-to-do-about-it.html
‘Solving’ unsolvable problems: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/solving-your-unsolvable-problems-what-happy-couples-know.html
Handling stepfamily issues: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/stepmarriages-keeping-love-alive-when-theyre-somebody-elses.html
Masturbation even after marriage: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/masturbation-marriage.html
Low sex drive in women: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/what-to-do-when-shes-not-ever-in-the-mood.html
Erectile dysfunction in men: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/sos-save-our-sexlife-or-do-it-yourself-sex-therapy-when-your.html
Types of abusers/leaving an abuser: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/when-men-batter-women-how-abuse-ends.html
Detecting an abuser early: http://www.lovesciencemedia.com/love-science-media/ignorance-or-ignore-ance-how-to-prevent-abuse.html
Recommended reading:
Every Wise Reader’s book case could benefit from the addition of The 7 Principles For Making Marriage Work.
If you have or want to have a baby without losing your relationship, you’ll love And Baby Makes Three.
And if you’re in an abusive relationship, When Men Batter Women is a must-own.
All material copyrighted by Duana C. Welch, Ph.D., and LoveScienceMedia, 2012.
Do you have a question for Duana? Email her at Duana@LoveScienceMedia.com. You’ll receive a personal, free response and if your letter is ever used on-site, your name and other identifying information will be changed prior to publication.